Why people think the 51D is so uber?

[MiloMorai]

Ah Kurt, PR Spits flew to Berlin and back. So nice of them to photograph the targets for the 8th AF.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Ah Kurt, PR Spits flew to Berlin and back. So nice of them to photograph the targets for the 8th AF.

Sometimes even a know-it-all like me learns something.

[Fencer51]

Stripped down without armament and stuffed to the gills with gasoline.

To quote from "Target Berlin" by Jeff Ethel and Alfred Price

While the mass of American bombers and fithers rumbled over the Dutch coast and out to sea, a lone aircraft was speeding eastwards to Berlin to complete the mission.  This was Spitfire "High Lady" of the US 7th Photo Group piloted by Major Walt Weitner.  The Spitfire had been stripped of all armament and armor, part of the wing had been converted into a huge fuel tank...

He ran out of gas upon landing as he taxied to his dispersal point.

[Kev367th]

Always wondered what a Pony with a Griffon would have been like. (of for that matter a Mossie with twin Griffons).

[Fencer51]

I do believe the P-51 racer "Red Baron" had a griffon mounted.

[Bronk]

I think Kev meant "in fighting trim".



Bronk

[Kev367th]

Yup,

Was reading up on how Rolls Royce developed the Merlin -

Basically get more power then run it till something breaks......
Strengthen or redesign that part......
Run the test again.....
Repeat as neccessary.

They actualy got a late model Merlin running for 15 mins at 2600+HP using the above method in late '44.
Merlin 130 was capable of 2030HP. (deHavilland Hornet)

[Nemeth]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Yes people are wrong for it was the P-47 that did all the hard work. The P-51 showed up in the middle of the 3rd quarter to finish the job.

WOW u didnt get my point, and the p47 wasnt the ONLY plane flying, not one plane alone could of won the war, it was a combined effort of the allies, that won the war (winter in russia helped a whole **** load to), and why does it always have to be a american plane?? the britts were in the war from the beginning, why cant a hurricane be the one that wone the war??they seen the most action, or even a bomber?

[gripen]

Here is the listing of USAF fighter air to air claims in ETO before June 44 from USAAF statistical digest:

1943     
Jan 5
Feb 2
Mar -
Apr 4
May 8
Jun 18
Jul 42
Aug 53
Sep 38
Oct 76
Nov 105
Dec 100

1944    
Jan 203
Feb 341
Mar 469
Apr 418
May 596

So USAF fighters did not claim particularly high numbers 1943. It would be interesting to know claims by type but so far I have not seen such data.

gripen

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Nemeth
WOW u didnt get my point, and the p47 wasnt the ONLY plane flying, not one plane alone could of won the war, it was a combined effort of the allies, that won the war (winter in russia helped a whole **** load to), and why does it always have to be a american plane?? the britts were in the war from the beginning, why cant a hurricane be the one that wone the war??they seen the most action, or even a bomber?

I got your point but you failed to understand what I said.

Without America, the arsenal, of the world, WW2 could be still being fought. What was that sci-fi book that had the world divided into 3 camps?

Winters in the SU were not nice but a bigger factor was that due to the Russians using a different RR guage all supples had to be transferred  from German RR cars to Russian RR cars.

[Glasses]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Sure the P-51 was VERY unstable.  That is why during Bodenplatte, a squadron of P-51s took off with full tanks, with drop tanks, while under attack and cleaned the air of LW a/c, all at low level. Not one crashed because of its fuel load. There was an aft CG bias but the a/c was still flyable, one just had to be careful about radical manuevers.

Yes people are wrong for it was the P-47 that did all the hard work. The P-51 showed up in the middle of the 3rd quarter to finish the job.

It may have something to do with the fact many of the People flying in Boddenplatte weren't the cream of the crop Milo. 16 and 17 year olds with 50 hours total flying time. Even  vets would say the P-51 was quit a handful at lower airspeeds. I had a video of a P-51 pilot flying at an airshow trying to make a low speed barrel roll and he augered in due to the aft CG limits of the aircraft.

The plane was good due the high altitude speed and low drag at higher speeds which gave it such great speed but it was hardly a turn fighter like we see in AH.
It's overly generous in its turn performance,and acceleration or lack of speed bleed. Not only that but being able to outnumber the enemy 10 to 1 which made up for lack of skill of many that were sent to the ETO,which like mentioned before when they arrived enforce they were mostly shooting down clay pigeons.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Glasses

It's overly generous in its turn performance,and acceleration or lack of speed bleed..

You know this for a fact because you have flown how many 51s ??????







Bronk

[gripen]

Let's go a bit further in USAAF statistics, below is heavy bomber losses to enemy aircraft before June 1944:

1943
Jan 18
Feb 21
Mar 18
Apr 28
May 48
Jun 78
Jul 79
Aug 87
Sep 46
Oct 139
Nov 53
Dec 85
1944
Jan 139
Feb 170
Mar 178
Apr 314
May 211

So based on bomber loses the activity of the Luftwaffe was strongest during April 1944. Same can be concluded from fighter losses to enemy aircraft:

1943
Jan 3
Feb 1
Mar 1
Apr 5
May 9
Jun 8
Jul 14
Aug 7
Sep 10
Oct 13
Nov 53
Dec 37
1944
Jan 57
Feb 69
Mar 54
Apr 201
May 176

Claims by bombers are also interesting:

1943
Jan 45
Feb 72
Mar 142
Apr 146
May 372
Jun 293
Jul 527
Aug 401
Sep 255
Oct 791
Nov 106
Dec 231
1944
Jan 582
Feb 397
Mar 363
Apr 346
May 380

While there is some justified doubts about bomber claims, it's quite clear that effect of the long range escort fighters did not show up before February 1944.

Overall it seems that USAAF fighters did not cause large damage to the Luftwaffe before spring 1944. Claims by type during spring 1944 would give quite good indication which type did the hard work.

gripen

[DiabloTX]

Originally posted by Nemeth
WOW what a poser! (and its all your base are belong to us)

Nice one.  Now go spit out the hook.

[Glasses]

Originally posted by Bronk
You know this for a fact because you have flown how many 51s ??????



Bronk

Likewise you've flown how many 109s P-38s F4Us or 190s???

I'm going by what was reported of the aircraft in the field and what one documentary of "flying the P-51"  

In which they flew a  refurbished P-51, if I'm not mistaken it was the  same guy that died later flying a 109.

It's like saying that the super laminar flow of the P-51 also allowed it to defy the thrust to weight of the aircraft or dropping full flaps allowed to grow a second wing as it performs in AH.  It allowed it with a 1700hp engine and a weight of 12k lbs to reach higherspeeds due to the lower drag profile compared to other aircraft , it was however   not  too stellar in acceleration,not only that but it had a very vulnerable radiator, and this has been said from people who got shot down flying it during low raids over German occupied Europe. Yet in AH it can take a bunch of hits and keep on flying, heck even 20mm rounds to the cockpit don't phase it.