Truer Words Were Never Spoken

[EN4CER]

Sorry to beat the Illegal Immigrant Issue again but the beaners with an attitude aggravate me. Mr. Bull Moose has it right in stating -

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but ONE FLAG, the American flag... We have room for but ONE LANGAUGE here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but ONE SOLE LOYALTY and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

[eagl]

Even Kennedy expresses shame over the congressional paralysis.

The entire congress, both house and senate, is totally paralyzed by extreme paranoia over re-election and partisan politics.  They're completely unable to do their job because of their self-serving election interests.

If they won't close the border and toss out the illegals, then maybe we need to toss out congress and put in place a govt that is capable of actually doing their job, namely creating federal legislation instead of avoiding legislation at all costs because it might affect re-election chances.

Term limits anyone?

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by eagl
Even Kennedy expresses shame over the congressional paralysis.

The entire congress, both house and senate, is totally paralyzed by extreme paranoia over re-election and partisan politics.  They're completely unable to do their job because of their self-serving election interests.

If they won't close the border and toss out the illegals, then maybe we need to toss out congress and put in place a govt that is capable of actually doing their job, namely creating federal legislation instead of avoiding legislation at all costs because it might affect re-election chances.

Term limits anyone?

[Nash]

Originally posted by eagl
Even Kennedy expresses shame over the congressional paralysis.

The entire congress, both house and senate, is totally paralyzed by extreme paranoia over re-election and partisan politics.  They're completely unable to do their job because of their self-serving election interests.

If they won't close the border and toss out the illegals, then maybe we need to toss out congress and put in place a govt that is capable of actually doing their job, namely creating federal legislation instead of avoiding legislation at all costs because it might affect re-election chances.

Term limits anyone?

Okay, and the reason they haven't done anything about illegal immigration last year, the year before that, the year before that, the year before that, the year before that, and the year before that was because of what? The paralyzing grip of the 2006 congressional elections?

[eagl]

Lots of factors contribute to legislative failures in the past...

Partisian politics and election fears have in my opinion tainted congress as far back as I have been paying attention to national politics (about 20 years) but in this case, the lack of immigration reform is probably more due to the feds leaving it up to the states, and the states likewise being held slave to election concerns.  Why else would the bankrupt (literally, they are financially bankrupt) California state govt continually fail to address a problem that is a massive drain on state and local resources, if there wasn't some purely political pressure forcing them to not do anything, and worse, not raise the issue as a matter of state and federal security?

The answer is a combination of re-election fear and political moneygrubbing.  Very powerful groups in California, namely the mexican "rights" lobby (mostly the right for every mexican to come to the US for free stuff) and the growers associations, have been working hard to ensure that no substantive changes occur on the issue of border control and immigration law enforcement.  They've been successful, and my opinion on why they've been so successful is that the politicians, even if not outright corrupt, are too concerned with getting re-elected to have any desire to confront the immigration issue on any meaningful level.

What would help is if both political parties would come to a gentleman's agreement to not use the immgration issue in the next election, and then go to work solving the problem.  But that would require the politicians to not only do their job instead of chasing votes and campaign contributions, but it would also require them to trust their fellow congresscritters.  And that won't happen because there is a strong leadership vacuum in congress and even if they did trust each other, someone, whether it's an up and coming wannabe congressman or the media, would turn any decision on the issue into a mass political suicide pact.

So nothing gets done, and more emergency rooms in so cal go out of business, more illegals claim citizenship benefits as "rights" (since when is free health care and a drivers license a "right"?), and the country continues to go down hill while congress quivers in fright.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The truth is this:

The Democrats want the votes of the illegal aliens when they get amnesty (or even if they don't and some moron decides aliens, legal or not, should vote). They are pandering to the illegals.

The Republicans want the votes of business people who employ illegals for cheap labor AND the illegals they employ. They'll likely get the votes of the business people. But the Democrats will get the votes of the illegals.

The general public wants the illegals out of the country, and their border crossing escapades stopped permanently.

Congress as a rule, on both sides, is too freaking stupid and arrogant to vote the will of those who elected them.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by eagl

Term limits anyone?

It's wishful thinking, I know, but I place more confidence in the public than that.

In any case, I don't believe term limits will change the partisan politics. The big two control the campaign purses.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Nash
Okay, and the reason they haven't done anything about illegal immigration last year, the year before that, the year before that, the year before that, the year before that, and the year before that was because of what? The paralyzing grip of the 2006 congressional elections?

The Congress has become nothing. They've sold their souls to their corporate sponsors and surrended any power they may have had to the presidency.

They don't do anything but prattle on about laws that really don't matter in the long run anyway. The debates about assault rifles and late term abortions are proof of this.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The truth is this:

The Democrats want the votes of the illegal aliens when they get amnesty (or even if they don't and some moron decides aliens, legal or not, should vote). They are pandering to the illegals.

Oh no... they're pandering to hispanics in general. The Republicans are making a play as well.

[capt. apathy]

Originally posted by Nash
Okay, and the reason they haven't done anything about illegal immigration last year, the year before that, the year before that, the year before that, the year before that, and the year before that was because of what? The paralyzing grip of the 2006 congressional elections?

the reason nothings been done to stop illegal immigration is that those with power/money/influence have no interest in seeing it stopped.

they can hire illegals for less than Americans or legal immigrants, plus no payroll tax, social security, unemployment insurance, or workmans comp payments.  if they guy gets hurt you just threaten to call immigration and your problem goes away.  if his injury is too severe he'll just go to the ER and stick the rest of us with the bill.

as long as there are jobs available, desperate people will find a way to get here.  people don't walk across deserts or smuggle themselves in shipping containers if there is no better life waiting at the end of the trip.

the problem and solution is simple and cheap.  hold employers who hire illegals responsible for the damage they are doing our country.

  for every illegal you employ you should be fined.  roughly 5 times what it would have cost you to hire legal workers at the prevailing wage seems a fair ballpark to set the fine at.  

for additional offenses or if you hire a dozen or more, jail time and lots of it.

this will also insure that we can monitor immigrants who come to our country.  and if the workers truly are needed then let them come legally.  denying the jobs to illegals will open up more jobs for legals.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by capt. apathy

the problem and solution is simple and cheap.  hold employers who hire illegals responsible for the damage they are doing our country.

  for every illegal you employ you should be fined.  roughly 5 times what it would have cost you to hire legal workers at the prevailing wage seems a fair ballpark to set the fine at.  

for additional offenses or if you hire a dozen or more, jail time and lots of it.

this will also insure that we can monitor immigrants who come to our country.  and if the workers truly are needed then let them come legally.  denying the jobs to illegals will open up more jobs for legals.

That's not cheap. That's horrific to the agriculture industry in states like California and Texas. You and I and everyone else that purchases produce in this country will pay dearly.

[capt. apathy]

Originally posted by Sandman
That's not cheap. That's horrific to the agriculture industry in states like California and Texas. You and I and everyone else that purchases produce in this country will pay dearly.

if it costs more to produce it will cost more to buy.  no doubt about it.

but I'd rather pay higher prices for products produced legally.  if your business can't survive while operating within the law then maybe you shouldn't be in business.

so I pay an extra $.25 a pound for lettuce.  I'd rather pay the extra cost directly instead of getting cheap produce but paying for it all the same in the high cost this country pays for illegal immigration and the problems it brings with it in areas like nat'l security, crime, and drains on medical and social services to name a few.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by capt. apathy
if it costs more to produce it will cost more to buy.  no doubt about it.

but I'd rather pay higher prices for products produced legally.  if your business can't survive while operating within the law then maybe you shouldn't be in business.

so I pay an extra $.25 a pound for lettuce.  I'd rather pay the extra cost directly instead of getting cheap produce but paying for it all the same in the high cost this country pays for illegal immigration and the problems it brings with it in areas like nat'l security, crime, and drains on medical and social services to name a few.

I suspect that prices would double or even triple, but that's just a guess. Simply because labor costs will increase or crops will be lost due to inefficiency. The people that are working the fields aren't a threat to national security and I wonder about crime as well. I'm not familiar with any statistics on crimes committed by illegal immigrant farm workers. I think medical and social services are valid concerns.

[Maverick]

In all fairness it isn't the illegals WORKING that are causing the problems. It's the ones not working, transporting drugs, selling drugs, ripping off houses and people, defrauding the other poor saps trying to get across the border, robbing, raping and in general just not being very nice people.

[capt. apathy]

Originally posted by Sandman
The people that are working the fields aren't a threat to national security and I wonder about crime as well. I'm not familiar with any statistics on crimes committed by illegal immigrant farm workers. I think medical and social services are valid concerns.

the problem is that when they come in illegally you have no idea who you are getting.  if we need the migrants let them apply for work visas and do it legally.

an additional benefit is that if we bring people in legally we end up with immigrants who are willing to function within the rules of our society.

with illegals you have a complete sub-society.  living completely outside the laws of this nation.  while many are just looking for an honest days work, if they are here illegally they are criminals.  so as far as your statistics on illegal immigrant farm workers every single one of them is a criminal.

I'm not suggesting a persecution of these people, but it is simply not an issue we can continue to ignore or tolerate.  why even have immigration laws, controlled borders or any of that if we are going to turn a blind eye because we don't want to pay a fair price for produce or are to cheap to pay a fair wage for an American(or legal alien) to do the work in America.