Author Topic: Truer Words Were Never Spoken  (Read 1232 times)

Offline Sandman

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Truer Words Were Never Spoken
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2006, 03:17:49 PM »
I'm sorry... when you mentioned crimes brought by illegal immigrants, I was thinking more along the lines of crimes that actually had victims. You know... burglary, robbery, assault, murder, etc.
sand

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2006, 03:20:17 PM »
When illegals and their employers don't pay any taxes etc., and enjoy all of the benefits, the rest of us are ALL victims. Hence, it is NOT a victimless crime.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2006, 03:24:42 PM »
Pffft... back up to the start of this particular discussion.

Capt. Apathy stated:

problems it brings with it in areas like nat'l security, crime, and drains on medical and social services to name a few

You're talking about drains on medical and social services because of the lack of taxes. Simply lumping this under "crime" doesn't fit within the context of the discussion. The argument presented treats crime as a separate item.

Certainly, I agree that illegal immigrants are or can be a burden to our social systems. It's also the best argument for amnesty going. Make them participate in our system and pay their taxes like the rest of us.

Punishing farmers for hiring people to do a job that no one else will do won't fix the problem. It'll simply escalate costs.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 03:34:55 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2006, 05:47:45 PM »
you don't get any cases in your area of illegals smuggling in heroin when they make the trip so they can have a bit more cash to start out with?

many find the business so good they skip the agricultural work all together.

then there was that guy who was killing all those people a few years back.  IIRC he was following the railroad and most of his victims where very near tracks.  took them a while to catch him.  what with him not legally existing in this country and all.

how about when the illegal runs his truck into you?  simple auto accident, only no license no insurance, you can't even garnish his wages because there is no record of him working.

how about child support and other legal judgments or debts?  if there is no record when he works and no record of him being in this country, how do you get your judgment (like you could even get a judgment because the guy isn't in this country legally, he sure isn't going to show up in a court room)

another problem is that by the nature of their situation they operate outside the law.  not just by breaking it but they also are not afforded the protections of the law.

for example.  supposing one illegal victimizes another (steals, mugs him, rapes someone, beats up there kid,  whatever). the victim can't go to the cops, he's illegal too.  so he handles it himself, a knife, a gun, maybe a drive-by at a store where your kid is buying a candybar.

people who don't operate under our laws, get a free ride on taxes, and often don't speak our language are not likely to assimilate into our culture.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2006, 05:56:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Punishing farmers for hiring people to do a job that no one else will do won't fix the problem. It'll simply escalate costs. [/B]


it's been my experience that there is no such thing as "a job no one else will do".  there are simply employers who aren't willing to pay what it takes to get workers.

I'm curious though.  what do you think amnesty will accomplish?

say we buy into it and all illegals instantly become legal.  

now they are documented, there employers now must pay minimum wage, provide Workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, payroll taxes, plus the workers are going to need a bit more money(just like the rest of us)  now that taxes are being deducted from their checks.

so after amnesty the employers are going to run into the same problem hiring illegals who are now legals as they do hiring Americans and legals now.

so they'll just have to bring in new illegals to do the work until we give those amnesty and he has to import a new batch.

why bother with a border at all?

Offline lasersailor184

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Re: the truth about why congress won't do anything
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2006, 06:02:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The truth is this:

The Democrats want the votes of the illegal aliens when they get amnesty (or even if they don't and some moron decides aliens, legal or not, should vote). They are pandering to the illegals.

The Republicans want the votes of business people who employ illegals for cheap labor AND the illegals they employ. They'll likely get the votes of the business people. But the Democrats will get the votes of the illegals.

The general public wants the illegals out of the country, and their border crossing escapades stopped permanently.

Congress as a rule, on both sides, is too freaking stupid and arrogant to vote the will of those who elected them.


The immigrants are not as easily sold to the democrats as you would think.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2006, 06:16:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
I suspect that prices would double or even triple, but that's just a guess. Simply because labor costs will increase or crops will be lost due to inefficiency.  


the labor cost to pick a $3 box of strawberries is 7 cents.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2006, 06:23:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
you don't get any cases in your area of illegals smuggling in heroin when they make the trip so they can have a bit more cash to start out with?

many find the business so good they skip the agricultural work all together.

then there was that guy who was killing all those people a few years back.  IIRC he was following the railroad and most of his victims where very near tracks.  took them a while to catch him.  what with him not legally existing in this country and all.

how about when the illegal runs his truck into you?  simple auto accident, only no license no insurance, you can't even garnish his wages because there is no record of him working.

how about child support and other legal judgments or debts?  if there is no record when he works and no record of him being in this country, how do you get your judgment (like you could even get a judgment because the guy isn't in this country legally, he sure isn't going to show up in a court room)

another problem is that by the nature of their situation they operate outside the law.  not just by breaking it but they also are not afforded the protections of the law.

for example.  supposing one illegal victimizes another (steals, mugs him, rapes someone, beats up there kid,  whatever). the victim can't go to the cops, he's illegal too.  so he handles it himself, a knife, a gun, maybe a drive-by at a store where your kid is buying a candybar.

people who don't operate under our laws, get a free ride on taxes, and often don't speak our language are not likely to assimilate into our culture.


Hmmm... the heroin thing... There are something like 11 million illegal immigrants in this country. Maybe I've just not paid enough attention to such things. As a percentage, how many are heroin smugglers?
sand

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2006, 06:24:51 PM »
Too many.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2006, 06:30:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
it's been my experience that there is no such thing as "a job no one else will do".  there are simply employers who aren't willing to pay what it takes to get workers.

I'm curious though.  what do you think amnesty will accomplish?

say we buy into it and all illegals instantly become legal.  

now they are documented, there employers now must pay minimum wage, provide Workman's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, payroll taxes, plus the workers are going to need a bit more money(just like the rest of us)  now that taxes are being deducted from their checks.

so after amnesty the employers are going to run into the same problem hiring illegals who are now legals as they do hiring Americans and legals now.

so they'll just have to bring in new illegals to do the work until we give those amnesty and he has to import a new batch.

why bother with a border at all?


You know... you're absolutely right. This is a complicated problem with no simple solutions. Whatever solutions are available, any that count on border control are doomed to failure, IMHO.
sand

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2006, 06:30:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Punishing farmers for hiring people to do a job that no one else will do won't fix the problem. It'll simply escalate costs.


Pfft yourself, you sound like yet another economically ignorant in-the-pocket-of-big-business Senator when you throw out that argument.

There is no such thing as a "job that no one else will do," only jobs that no one else will do at that price.  Illegally circumventing minimum wage laws, immigration laws, and everything else put in place to protect workers in this country only artificially depresses the wages to the point that people can spout their BS about "jobs no one else will do" - not to mention increasing domestic unemployment.  

So what happens if we get rid of illegal workers in our country?  Lettuce might go up to $20 a pound.  Demand for lettuce will drop.  American farms may go out of business or switch to a crop that is more profitable.  The world will not end.  I will eat fewer salads.  McSaladshakers will get pulled off the market.  Armageddon will not ensue.  

Then, the market will begin to correct itself.  Some enterprising farmer will discover that if he charters a bus from the inner city to his farm, and pays a decent, legal wage, he can sell his lettuce for only $16 a pound.  Another will discover that he can invent a new machine to help him pick lettuce and sell it for $15 a pound.  A researcher somewhere will say "there's a huge cultural demand for lettuce, yet its price is so high nobody is willing to buy it - I bet if I invented a new lettuce fertilizer, I would sell tons of it to farmers looking to sell lettuce" - so he invents it, sells lots of it, and farmers use it to take lettuce down to $12 a pound.   Then, some enterprising farmer figures out how to combine all of these methods effectively, and lettuce again drops in price - maybe even to a point lower than it started, since production is now so much more efficient, even though labor costs are higher.  

It could even help out our Mexican neighbors to the south.  Say an enterprising lettuce-picker returns to his country when his job dries up, and sees that there is now a huge demand for cheap lettuce in the US.  So he hires his old lettuce-picking buddies for reasonable wages, and produces lettuce to import into the US for below the US market price.  Now you're providing jobs for Mexicans in Mexico and alleviating the desire for people to leave.  You're building wealth in Mexico as well as providing lettuce to McSaladshaker-eating Americans.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 06:36:52 PM by Tarmac »

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2006, 06:43:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
Pfft yourself, you sound like yet another economically ignorant in-the-pocket-of-big-business Senator when you throw out that argument.

There is no such thing as a "job that no one else will do," only jobs that no one else will do at that price.  Illegally circumventing minimum wage laws, immigration laws, and everything else put in place to protect workers in this country only artificially depresses the wages to the point that people can spout their BS about "jobs no one else will do" - not to mention increasing domestic unemployment.  


Economically, I think farming fits within the definition of "perfect competition". Ask one of those big business senators what that means. ;)

Then ask him how he plans on eliminating the practice of paying cash to employees.

As much as I might agree that it's a problem. I doubt very much that there is an enforceable solution.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 06:49:52 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2006, 06:55:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Economically, I think farming fits within the definition of "perfect competition". Ask one of those big business senators what that means. ;)

Then ask him how he plans on eliminating the practice of paying cash to employees.

As much as I might agree that it's a problem. I doubt very much that there is an enforceable solution.


Excellent.  No problems ever have solutions.  Bury your head in the sand.  Is that where you get your name?

oooh, that was horrible, but I couldn't resist :)

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2006, 06:56:54 PM »
I offered a solution. Make 'em citizens and tax 'em accordingly.
sand

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2006, 06:58:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Too many.


Wouldn't have that problem if drugs were decriminalized. (But that's another thread). ;)
sand