why obey laws....

[john9001]

BlckMgk
what don't you understand about the word illegal, it would be really funny if a illegal took your job.

but it's too late to close the border now, there are too many of them here and they vote or their relatives vote.
if they want to live in America the only answer is to invade Mexico and make it part of the USA, then they can stay home and have all the benefits of living in the evil USA.

Mexico and USA and Canada have all be around for about the same amount of time, so why are things so bad in Mexico and not in USA and Canada?  the govt of Mexico is and always has been corrupt, so overthrow the govt and liberate the people of Mexico.

[BlckMgk]

Gomba:

That was very well put, and I agree with you.

The problem is two part:
1- As you put it illegal is illegal, if they don't come in legitimately they shouldn't be here.
2- If they are here, the people who employ their labor.

I have a first hand experience as an imigrant, and those around me are mostly imigrants, or are 1st generation US citizens. Its difficult to see people who try to arrive the legal way but get denied, turned around or prosecuted in their country for trying to leave.

There is a problem generalizing all imigrants and saying all their situations are the same.

[Goomba]

When laws aren't enforced are they really laws?

Yup.



The arguement otherwise is simply specious, convenient and self-serving.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Goomba
Yup.



The arguement otherwise is simply specious, convenient and self-serving.

Allowing laws to go broken and unenforced only begs the question lazs opened this thread with. Enforce them or remove them. To do less compromises all of them.

[Bronk]

Laz to try and make you feel a little better here is a good story for you.

I use to be a shell fisherman for a living, specifically quahogs (hard shell clams for those not from RI) .  In the Summer I'd get checked 2 maybe 3 times a week by the DEM officers. Well one day i asked why he would always check me he said " Well, you work much of the same area and you are always legal no paper work for me.".   I then told him he should check the Cambodians that were working the shore.
 Now here is where it gets good.
Ya see if I were to get caught with undersized quahogs it's a $5 a piece.
 the DEM officer walks over to where they have their 5 gal bucket with a towel covering it. It was 2/3 full of Quahogs  ALL undersized some as small as your thumbnail. Gets better he asked to see some ID well they are all from out of state. Then he asked to see their permit. Have to buy a permit if you are from out of state. No permit. Now he walks over and looks in their  Toyota van he sees another bucket, probable cause . He tells them to open the van all of a sudden no one understands him. He takes out his cuffs and now they understand. Now he is inside the van he finds a net that has holes like a screen . This is totally illegal, holes have to be over 1 inch at that time . Also he finds a bunch of fry of various species.

Well to make it a happy ending the the owner of the car was fined $1500.
They never came back after that.
Ohh the DEM officer asked me if we were even , I told him hell yes.



Bronk

[Goomba]

BlckMgk,

I have great respect for the immigrant experience;  I'm second generation All-American myself.

I have a great respect for all those who so love my country that they truly want to be a part of it.  I'm honored and proud.

I have no respect, no sympathy and no empathy for those who would spit on the country I love, by stealing from it and screaming about how they deserve to.

I know the process is flawed...which is why I've always supported a healthy debate and reformation of the system.

However...flawed though it may be...a person cannot self-justify a willful dismissal of the law of the land, simply because they find the process not to their liking.

Some will get denied for good reason.  Tough.

Some will get denied because there are limits as to how many people we can let in every year;  the cow does NOT have endless milk.  Again...I'm sorry, but them's the breaks.

Prosecution or persecution in a person's home country for trying to leave?  How on God's green earth can that be our problem?  How can that be our fault?  Every time we stick our noses into another country's business, we get slapped around and criticized all over the world.  The American Empire come to interfere again.

I say, if life stinks so bad at home...fix it.  Not easy, not painless, not without sacrifice...I don't make any suggestion that it's a quick and simple matter.  But, if life stinks at home, it will never, NEVER improve until the nationals of that country decide to improve themselves....and not wait for someone else to do it for them.  That's simply how the world works.

There are two choices at home....fix it is one.  The other is to declare oneself unwilling and incapable of participating in one's own cultural development, and then run away.  And when you've run somewhere else, cry about how your rights are being violated, and what you deserve to be given...without earning a damned thing.  Of course, then we see those self-same people decide that, while their own culture isn't worth fighting for at home, they cannot live without that same culture when they come here.  No assimilation, for generations!!  Just move into the isolated enclave neighborhood with others from their home country, then refuse to become part of this one.

I do not...and would never...lump all immigrants together.  To do so would make me the worst form of hypocrite.  I'm only here because my family DID immigrate to the US, and they did assimilate.  Quite proudly, I'm glad to say.

No, I have no issue with any decent human being who so loves what my country stands for that they would leave behind all that they know and are familiar with, to be a part of what we are.

If we dimiss the lunatic fringe, I think the whole issue pivots on one, fundamental operative word.

Illegal.



(PS...any part of this which sounded like it was personal to BlckMgk was not intended that way.  Speaking in the generic, as it were.)

[Goomba]

luk,

You're right.

Failure to enforce existing laws is the beginning of all this.  The ability to enforce said laws is one of the fulcrums of the whole debate.

Reform of inappropriate or dated laws, and effectual enforcement of laws which are constructive are the two keys to resolution.

However, inefficient enforcement does not, can not, justify criminal behavior.  Ever.

Getting away with it, 'cause the cops didn't see ya', don't make your crime legal.

[Kaw1000]

Ask yourself this question.....WHY ARE IMMAGRATION LAWS NOT ENFORCED?????? Does'nt anyone see the underlying resons??

[lukster]

Cops not seeing you isn't the problem here as I know you know Goomba. Our government has chosen to ignore it's own law. Lawless governments tend to collapse or be overthrown. Just a matter of time.

[Goomba]

Just making an example, luk.  I do get what your intent is.

However...we cannot take a lack of enforcement as evidence of some nefarious plot, nor as an omen of impending collapse.

It's simply a matter of INS and US Border Patrol being wildly underfunded, undermanned and underequipped.  And THAT's simply because (IMO), prior to this last coupla weeks, immigration reform was NOT a top priority in the federal budgeting process.  No glamor, no glory and few votes in border security.

You'll also find that education, art, music, science and mathematics are also grossly underfunded.  But Congress got a raise.  THAT's the meat of the problem, IMO.

There are many, many underenforced laws around.  None of them fortells doom, just a matter of money and priorities.

Ever been speeding, and didn't get caught?  Yup.

Does it mean the ultimate collapse of Western civilization?  Nope.

I can't agree that this particular flaw makes ours a lawless government.

[lukster]

I didn't mean to imply that a collapse of our government was imminent. However, no taxation without representation was the warcry of a revolution not so long ago or so far away. If our government won't enforce our laws then how are we today much different from those rallying behind that warcry a little more than a couple of centuries ago?

[tapakeg]

I know this is mainly about illegal immigration, but could you imagine if they randomly started putting drug sniffing dogs at every entrance to a major concert?  Don't you think there is reasonable cause?  Could you imagine the band taking stage and seeing 4 people in the audience?

[lukster]

Originally posted by tapakeg
I know this is mainly about illegal immigration, but could you imagine if they randomly started putting drug sniffing dogs at every entrance to a major concert?  Don't you think there is reasonable cause?  Could you imagine the band taking stage and seeing 4 people in the audience?

I suspect you'd be opposed to that sort of "enforcement"?

I suppose many laws aren't strictly enforced because not everyone agrees with them. Guess that's more likely the larger the body of people that you apply a particular law to. Seems like a good reason to have few federal laws with the bulk of them being local. That at least allows a person a greater chance of finding a community that seems reasonable to them.

Border security seems to me one of the few legitimate areas to cover with federal law.

[Mustaine]

Originally posted by lukster
I suppose many laws aren't strictly enforced because not everyone agrees with them.

agree or not, they are laws, and that has nothing to do with them. ask ANY law enforcement agent.

we simply can not afford to enforce them on the scale of the example above. imagine 2000 people being arrested on minor drug charges at a large concert:

thats 2000 people that need to be transported to a police station. 2000 people that need to be booked, checked for warrants, finger printed, photographed, cited, then depending on the charge, released.

now consider the man house involved in this. now consider the time it would take to finish the job. you'd have to feed them. ALL of them even the ones finished in 5 minutes, because of equal rights. the ones that have to wait 12 hours need to be fed possibly twice. then there's facilities for all of them. i know the Milwaukee county klink doesnt have enough space to take in 2000 arrests in a single night.

also add the manpower to control the crowd at the concert for the possible riot at so many being arrested.

now add the court costs, and man hours there resolving these 2000 cases.

all that for 1 concert. there's 52 weeks in the year, and in some major cities there is a concert a few times a week.

imagine the local taxpayers being told they are quadrupling the police and safety budget for the next year to enact this.



there is no "like" or "dislike" about the laws, there is logistics in everything though. some things are just not possible in a logical sence.

[Furball]

why dont you invite them onto your trailer park for a peaceful protest and shoot them lazs? isnt that what you do to people you dont like over there?

if they are on your property isnt it legal?