why obey laws....

[pasta]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
I've mentioned this before, for most every California police dept it is strictly against policy to assist in any immigration issue.

The INS raided a "slave" house, we stood down a block away so as not to even give the impression we were assisting in any way.

LAPD as well as Santa Monica PD have unwritten policies to turn a blind eye to minor infractions by "migrant workers"... things we'd call quality of life issues like urinating/drinking in public.

Why?, because most of the time they have no address or offer generic names like "Jose Lopez" and its a waste of resources for such minor things... thats the excuse anyway.

Santa Monica has an exploding homeless population for just this reason. The migrants, esp around here in North Hollywood, are BOLD mofos who will look you in the eye and piss on your flowers as they drink a beer.... they know LAPD either wont bother showing up, or just herd them along to the next block to become someone elses problem.

Thanks to years and years of the so called nut less "leaders" shaping policing policies that let these people walk around with near impunity, they have been emboldened to scream from the building tops "I'm illegal, you OWE me, and F your US laws" while waiving the Mexican Flag.

If you research some of these groups, which it was my job to do for a short while, you'll find most all of the Mexican centric ones have an agenda to return Texas and parts of California to Mexico, an unconditional opening of the border... things like that.... yet our politicians take them seriously.

You'd also be shocked, or not, to find out where they get some of their political donations from: So American drug cartels, MS13, various radical, even "narco terrorist" organizations who would absolutely love to see their "mules" gain easier access to the US.

I have accepted long ago immigration issues related to Mexico et al are a complete joke, its turned places like Los Angeles into "home plate"... if you can run around the bases and break enough laws to slide home, the LA leaders yell "SAFE!" like an umprie, pat you on the back and look the other way.

Meanwhile by friend Jim from Canada waited 8 years, paid thousands in lawyer fees and jumped through 100 hoops to become a US citizen.

So you saying we should fight not with illegal alliens but with drug dealers and all junkies around, rich and poor.
NO drugs mean no crime, and no illegals.
So better spend all this money for fight with weeds users then for building fences.Using and possesing drugs should be punished as same as murder .

I like lazs idea bout punishing employers, maybe we should shoot them as spy's, cuz they are like treaitors.
Dead penality for employers who hire illegal, also jail time for all who know or support this kind of actioons.
If we can't fight with people who cross border , lets fight with those who can pay for their actions.

[lukster]

Of course punishing the employers was passed in the House. I'm not real clear what happened to it after that. Was that the same bill but radically  altered that just failed in the Senate?

Putting more laws on the books that we ignore and don't enforce isn't the answer. Putting troops and/or fences on the border is a good start.

[ramzey]

as i remember correct its 3000$ fine for hiring illegal worker, thats nothing
usual employer earn dayly not less then 3 times  he pay to illegal worker.
3000$ is nothing for bussines.
also its enforced not by IRS or INS.

I heard about guy who hired 17 illegals in his machine shop (he had 2 of them in one area), they cough 15 of them, 2 escape.
Guy paid 50k$ fine and move his bussines to nevada, living 5 fellows citizens out of work. He still have 2 shop's,  one small to recive orders in old place and secound one in nevada, where all work is done. thx good he not move his bussines to china.

[Atoon]

But I live very close to Laz here in California, and in my 38 years of life, I have seen a large difference in the types of jobs the illegal workforce is used to accomplish.

No one really cared when most illegals were out in the fields bent over for 12-14 hours a day picking produce for a fraction of the cost a legal citizen would accept. Now they are doing skilled labor jobs for very cheap rates, and it's putting many citizens out of work. Roofing, landscape installations, masonry, general construction, sheetrock & plastering/stucco and restaraunt jobs. These are now the most common types of jobs I see illegal (mexican) workers doing. While there seems to be an obvious difference in the QUALITY of work done, many people will only look at the bottom line = DOLLARS.

I have seen things gradually change. It seems like now that they are getting into the higher paying types of work and taking jobs that legal citizens would actually do,  NOW it is now a problem.

I think Laz is right as far as the best  solution, is to punish (very harshly) the employers of said illegals, but where down the progressive ladder of desirable types of work do we enforce these laws.  Punish the small farmer for employing known illegals, and his farm will go belly up. But take a major contractor with hundreds or even thousands of illegals on the payroll......

I don't kow where the line is exactly, but I know my point is valid.

[Atoon]

I know that there is a lucrative business in providing said illegals with fake documentation which they use to gain employment. Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.

If we really want to deal with this problem, we MUST address the fake documentation industry. Yes, at this time it is in fact an "industry". This industry will get an even bigger boom if we lay down and enforce huge penalties on employers. Any employer penalty laws must be accompanied by large penalties for fake documentation manufactures. IMO-

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Atoon
Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.

Yes, it is their responsibility.

[JB88]

Originally posted by Atoon
I know that there is a lucrative business in providing said illegals with fake documentation which they use to gain employment. Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.

If we really want to deal with this problem, we MUST address the fake documentation industry. Yes, at this time it is in fact an "industry". This industry will get an even bigger boom if we lay down and enforce huge penalties on employers. Any employer penalty laws must be accompanied by large penalties for fake documentation manufactures. IMO-

we need to make documents with the same technologies that
we are using on modern forms of identifications, including magetic strips and embedded dna strands.

pretending that you dont know that juan gomez who doesnt speak a lick of english is just plain frigging illegal is just a pathetic excuse no matter how you slice it.

it IS thier responsibility.

[Goomba]

Many employers know the documentation to be fake, but it is not their responsibility to look up a potential employees social securty # to ensure its validity.

Actually, it is.  

Hiring illegals is illegal, and compliance with the law is the responsibility of the business.

Any business which chooses to comply with the law has no trouble establishing the background of an employee, within reason.  Such data is easily available on the Internet, and is used routinely by thousands of businesses.

Not only is it the company's responsibility to not hire a known or suspected illegal, it's their proper duty to report said individual(s) to INS.  We all know nothing would happen (right now), but the duties and responsibilities don't change.

[lazs2]

jab... nope.... I am not asking for the government to do anything.  I am telling you what will solve the problem with the least government interferance in everyones personal lives.

You all want to build walls and hire thousands upon thousands of government empoyees...

Exactly what the government wants you to think has to be done... when in reality...

The whole problem is that they are not doing their jog... it is not legal to hire illegals.  

My solution would not grow the government and it would punish the people who are hurting the rest of us.

My alternate solution would be to open the borders and no one pay taxes or obey laws.

That would be ideal.... what do I care if illegals come here if I don't have to school em or pay their medical bills?

I doubt that will happen so the next best and least intrusive solution is to jail the lawbreakers that are the biggest cause of the problem...

The employers..

You guys who want a bigger police force are playing right into the governments hand.... they will be glad to take your money and grow their departments and ask for more and more every year while the "problem" doesn't get any better (even more reason for them to have a bigger budget next year)

wake up mushheads.

lazs

[Hangtime]

Agreed. Jail employers.. manditory company crippling fines. Make it more expensive to hire illegals than it is to get legals. Start with manditory jailing of Politicians that have illegals on their household staffs.

[lukster]

Just seems unlikely to me that we'll suddenly start enforcing harsher laws like putting employers in jail when we won't even enforce the laws currently on the books. Would it solve the problem of illegal immigration? No doubt. Will it happen? Much doubt.

If most Americans would support this type of law as I believe they would then why wait for Congress or law enforcement to make it happen. Why not exercise your rights and boycott those that use illegal laborers?

I still say we need better physical border security now.

[lazs2]

it is much easier to punish a few thousand employers who have a huge financial stake in not getting caught (they can't flee back across the border) than to try to punish 12-20 million people who have nothing and nothing to lose.

you put one roofing contractor in prison and you won't see another illegal in construction anywhere in that area.

sheesh.... build 12' high walls and all you do is increase the market for 13' ladders.    tell the government you want em to try to stop an unstopable flow from getting in and they will be more than happy to grow 20% every year in budget and whine for more money while getting absofrigginglutely.... nothing done but build a bigger staff off your money.

start jailing employers and yu will get em snitching each other off till there is no problem.

How many crimes do you think cops solve?   about zero... somebody snitches somebody off.   that's the way it works.

once it starts it will snowball... the guy scared to hire illegals is gonna have to snitch off the guy who does if he want's to compete and...

citizens will want to know too..  

There should be no cutoff point... you get a mandatory 1 year sentance no matter if you hire 100 illegals or one maid in your beverly hills home.

If a contractor did the hiring... he goes to jail not you.

lazs

[lukster]

Sure, what you suggest did pass in the house and would solve the problem. I suspect the reason it will never pass the house, senate and president is that too many do not want those already here to leave. I'm not happy with that but I'll be even less happy if we don't stop more from coming.

[Jackal1]

Heard on the news last night that $400,000 was the cost for planning and staffing, setup, etc. for security for the rally in Dallas this past weekend.
Paid for by the tax payer. See anything wrong with a city spending this much in a place where some of our war veterans are living in cardboard boxs under overpasses?

[Atoon]

If it Is in fact the employer resposibilty to verify SSN's and other documentation, no one is making the do so. I know all the major restaurant chains in my area have multiple illegals, I'm sure they provided fake documentation, and they got the job- no problem. Happens daily, and these are nation wide chains like applebees & red lobster.

I guess Lazis right, there should be no line. If your caught hiring an illegal, you should be locked up amd fined. I just worry about the price of veggies and such skyrocketing because of increased labor costs. Like I said before, no one really seemed to care when they were just out in the fields picking for a fraction of the cost a citizen would accept.