Author Topic: P51 and the 50 cal  (Read 2535 times)

Offline Squire

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2006, 05:04:04 PM »
"How often do you fly 51-D's. Not much I'm sure"

...Ok, lets try it this way.

"Is it just me or is the 50 cals on a P51-D useless"

Its just you. :D
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Offline SgtDibs

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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2006, 05:51:39 PM »
I am amazed at how much knowledge that is spread on one of these type posts. Other than the smart azzes, it's pretty helpful. Thanks for those that contributed something of value. o.k. Skuzzy, give us the real deal....
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Offline Vudak

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2006, 06:19:55 PM »
I dunno...  I kinda agree about the 51's 50cals just from personal experience.  I fly alot of 6x50 birds, have convergence set on all of em to 275, but, for whatever reason, it just *seems* like they're deadlier on a Corsair or Hellcat then a 51.

There are so many variables and it's probably just something that I'm doing wrong or different, even slightly so.  Still, are there any other explanations besides just human error to account for this?  I'd think that if convergence is 275 on all of em, if you hit in the same place, they'd all be as deadly.  But could any difference be attributed to wing structure/gun placement?  I wouldn't think there would be, but maybe a gun expert could explain why/why not?
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Offline Hoarach

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2006, 06:30:40 PM »
Where are you people getting these results? :huh

I occasionly fly the 51 when Im going to go into a hairy situation and need to be able to dive without compression and have speed.  Of course I dont fire until im within 400 and 400 being the farthest out a I fire.  I need maybe 25-50 total rounds the most to knock down a fighter.  Sometimes if my aim is off that night 75-100 total.  For a buff need between 25-100 total rounds as I aim for cockpit and buff goes poof immediately.  If my aim is off maybe 150 rounds total.
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Offline bkbandit

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2006, 10:28:48 PM »
The guns seem inconsistent. I give a cosair a quick snap shot and take the wing off and then i run them up a 47 and take one wing off and the rudders in one of those nose up and cant see the target shots. But then i hav to beat the hell out of other planes to take them down.


A gun expert or a ww2 historian would be able to explain the problem, i mean i watch documentarys with the gun cams and those 50 cals would hit and at LEAST damage a german plane so that the chase became easier.  In the pacific it was just 5 hits and u got a burnin zero.  I just feel that the guns need to be stepped up in power, im not askin for them to be as powerful as 6 hispanos but powerful enuff so that the guys fightin u dont say "well it just has 50 cals" (i have heard this before).

SGt these message boards are very helpful, just those couple of smart tulips with nothin better to do ruin it.

Offline Spatula

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2006, 11:07:01 PM »
You contradict yourself. You say:
Quote
Originally posted by bkbandit
The guns seem inconsistent. I give a cosair a quick snap shot and take the wing off and then i run them up a 47 and take one wing off and the rudders in one of those nose up and cant see the target shots. But then i hav to beat the hell out of other planes to take them down.


And then go on to say:
Quote
Originally posted by bkbandit
A gun expert or a ww2 historian would be able to explain the problem, i mean i watch documentarys with the gun cams and those 50 cals would hit and at LEAST damage a german plane so that the chase became easier.  In the pacific it was just 5 hits and u got a burnin zero. [/B]


So you accept that any particular projectile can have quite different effects on the things it hits depending on how well armoured/resistant it was built. I think this is modelled sufficiently in AH2.

When you say "50 cals would hit and at LEAST damage a german plane so that the chase became easier" is asking for a change to the damage model, not to the 'power' of the virtual 50calibre round. In fact a 50cal round does not have any inherent 'power' as they dont explode. They have no internal or latent force except for their inertia from being shot out a gun which is their weight plus their speed at impact. So what you are really asking for IS a change in the damage model.

To a point i agree the damage model could be enhanced to add things like parasitic drag from bullet holes and damaged aircraft panels etc. At the moment i dont believe thats modelled.


Quote
Originally posted by bkbandit
 I just feel that the guns need to be stepped up in power, im not askin for them to be as powerful as 6 hispanos but powerful enuff so that the guys fightin u dont say "well it just has 50 cals" (i have heard this before).
[/B]


I dont think making them more 'powerfull' is needed. They are PLENTY effective enough if used correctly. If they were anymore 'powerfull', i think you'd get a whole lot more whining about them being 'over-powered' and 'uber' than if we leave them as they are.
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Offline Tony Williams

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2006, 12:58:29 AM »
I can't comment on AH as my interest in the subject is historical, but it sounds as if what is happening parallels RL. When bullets hit a plane, all sorts of variable effects come into play. Many bullets will simply pass through non-vital areas, just leaving neat .50 cal holes and doing no significant damage. Many others will be on target to hit something vital but will be deflected by the aircraft's structure or equipment (like oxygen bottles) and pass out of the plane again. Others will get tumbled as they pass through the plane's structure and will hit an armour plate side-on, so won't penetrate.

For all of these reasons it sometimes happened that a pilot would virtually shred his opponent without being able to shoot him down. The next time, his first bullet fired might hit something vital and bring down the plane immediately. That's the way it went - there was a lot of chance involved.

I don't know how well AH models RL. In RL, most fighter pilots never shot down anything, ever, which suggests that it's too easy in sims. OTOH, I don't doubt that lots of sim flying hones shooting skills in a way that WW2 training methods couldn't match. It would be interesting to get the views of an RL WW2 fighter pilot on the sim, that's the only way you're likely to get at the answer.

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Offline Simaril

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2006, 05:41:52 AM »
Just FYI, Bandit and Dibs, TOny Williams has literally written the book on  aircraft weaponry -- more than once. (Check out Rapid Fire: the development of automantic cannons, machine guns, and their ammunition,   Jane's Ammunition Handbook ,  Flying guns of the modern era, and Flying Guns of WW1 for starters.)

His  website and published writings are a gold standard for aircraft armament. Take what he says very, very seriously, because he is NOT some intardnet know it all -- and he's got enough class that he wouldnt throw his weight around to impress you.



Tony-- it occurs to me that there may also be a less flattering reason sim pilots get many more kills than in real life. We see FAR more enemies than the  average RL pilot would, many of our opponents have little concept of combat maneuvering or effective teamwork, and especially the enemies arent nearly as worried about staying alive as a real pilot would be.
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Offline Simaril

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2006, 05:56:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bkbandit
So the spits wings are weaker then the zeros wings. The spit kill was pretty much a snap shot.  The zero was a line of flashes not 4 5 pings across but a solid line from tip to tip. And he was pretty close between 200 and 400. He take at LEAST 6 hit in his cockpit alone. Ill watch the same 2 planes in a pacific war documentary and 5 hits to the body and the zero goes on fires.  I mean he should have had some damage at least.


No, not so much that the wings are weaker, jsut more likely that the hts were concentrated. Your snap shot likely landed multiple pings in the same damage zone....and thats an important concept in understandign how AH models damage.

Each aircraft is divided into a large numebr of invisible "hit boxes".  Some of these are connected to critical systems, like an airelon, a fuel tank, or a radiator, that cause specific system loss or a fire. Others are structural, like a wing section or the empennage (the tail/stabilizer package).

The game keeps track of each hit box seperately. Partial damage is NOT efective -- in order for that small section of wing or fuselage to hinder flight, the total damage has to exceed the hit box' limit. Once that threshold is passed, the damage -- wether its a chunk of wing, an airelon, or a fire generation section (fuel line or unsealed tank --like the early japanese planes had) -- takes effect and the flight capacity degrades.

So, if you spread hits among several boxes, you wont see damage.

Incidentally, Bandit, the cockpit is the one area that has a small enough threshoild to cause plane death with a single ping. One mean but enoyable trick is to get your parachuted pilot to the hangar or runway, and use the 45 to shoot at the pilots as enemy planes appear. Its purely a "one shot, one kill" exercise. In the air, a cockpit hit makes the plane explode and teh pilot immediately go to the tower.

So your experience with "5-6" hits in the cockpit area is probably an example of combat adrenaline cahnging perception. Every single time I've seen someone have similar "no fair" complaints in AH, but with a film  to back it up, analysis has shown that the hits were not as numerous or as well placed as teh pilot remembered.

Secondly, about the film clips on TV -- dont forget the concept of "selection bias." Of all the guncamera films to see, the ones with dramatic results are far more likely to get on the tube. So, even if "every one" shows a flaming zeke -- there are probably hundreds that showed flashes without a kill, and those wont ever end up being viewed by a national audience.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 05:59:33 AM by Simaril »
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Offline Casper1

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2006, 06:49:12 AM »
I think Tony's post does this topic justice.  
It's alot of chance (especially if you aim at center mass, like others stated).  

Sometimes, a 25 round burst will tear your opponent's tail off, sometimes it will leave him with a few holes and nothing more.

For me, I find I get more kills in MG only planes versus Cannon/MG planes. Why?  Maybe because of Rate of Fire.  Maybe I havent honed my Cannon trajectory skills.  

Regardless, the .50 Cals in game are extremely effective, especially at ranges of 400 and closer.  Heck, Ive ripped a 262's tail clean off with a 40 round burst from 600 out as he was running.  Other times, I cant bring a lowly LA or Yak down without firing over 10 bursts of 25-50 rounds of ammo at him.  

Use the 50 Cals where they are most effective...in a saw like manner, aiming at SPECIFIC parts of the aircraft, at ranges where you can most easily get all your guns CONVERGING ON THE SAME POINT.

Good luck.

Offline hammer

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2006, 07:44:07 AM »
As far as pure hitting power is concerned, the U.S. .50 cal is actually more powerful in AH than in real life. I did some testing of fighter weapons by seeing how many rounds it would take to kill a fighter hangar. I then weighted the numbers (using the U.S. .50 as "1") and compared them to the numbers from Tony Williams' article on WWII Fighter Armament. The results were that an AH .50 is roughly 1/3 as powerful as a 20mm Hispano, while in real life the .50 was more like 1/4 as powerful. Comparison of all the AH Fighter Weapons can be found here.
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Offline Tony Williams

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2006, 01:39:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Tony-- it occurs to me that there may also be a less flattering reason sim pilots get many more kills than in real life. We see FAR more enemies than the  average RL pilot would, many of our opponents have little concept of combat maneuvering or effective teamwork, and especially the enemies arent nearly as worried about staying alive as a real pilot would be.


Why, thanks for your kind remarks - you'll get me all embarrassed :o

I'm sure you are right about the above, and I could add some more possible reasons: in a sim, you aren't jammed into a cramped and vibrating cockpit, being subject to rapid, violent and random changes of G force and, above all, sick with heart-pounding terror at the prospect of imminent (and possibly very nasty) death. Not the best circumstances in which to be coolly concentrating on what you're doing.

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Offline dedalos

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2006, 03:13:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
I don't know how well AH models RL. In RL, most fighter pilots never shot down anything, ever, which suggests that it's too easy in sims.


Exactly.  Not only it is possible to hit people while twisting and turning from 10 football fields away (15 in the case of buffs) but this is also software (not real life).  All software has bugs (we refer to them as net lag here)

So, not only it is too easy, it is also not consistant, it does not simulate real life (bulets geting through or hiting armor plate, etc), and it does not simulate real life fighting (I am willing to bet that 51s did not stall fight spitVs 10 feet of the floor).

However, it is fun.
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Offline Jester

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2006, 03:56:30 PM »
Best advice I ever got was stick the prop right in the cockpit with them before you pull the trigger - then you are pretty much assured of a killing shot.

2nd - Learn to shoot at your Convergence. Go offline and practice shooting at your convergence at all angles. Start the range close and work out wards to about 400 yards. I have seen guys in my squads regularly get kills at these ranges because they learned to shoot a target to lead him where all the bullets of the 6 guns converge at a single point. Very few aircraft will stand up to a 6 gun bust of .50 cals to a concentrated point.

!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 04:05:05 PM by Jester »
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Offline Trikky

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P51 and the 50 cal
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2006, 05:04:19 PM »
50 cal seem about right - I've seen the film Tremors II so I know what I'm talking about.

If you start lobbing 37 or 30mm about you'll really learn the art of frustration/chance as the plane which was one huge hit sprite a second earlier promptly flys off leaving you gnawing at your Saitek.