Seafire Questions

[Angus]

Jeff Quill also covers the introduction and first use of the Seafires.
Proved tough on the little escort carriers.
I've also got some nice episode from Johnny Johnsson about Spit Vc's flying to Malta.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Angus
So much for the theory that no Seafires were clipped, lol.
(Was on these boards long ago)
Anyway:
"There is a good book by a RN seafire pilot, They Gave Me a Seafire, who was in combat in the last stages of the war on Japan. A lot of info about the mid & later stages of Seafire development in that book..."
I'll buy it !!!! Saw it in the shelves of Foyle's I think and skipped it for something else, awww.
http://www.foyles.com
Lots of books.
Particularly interesting that there were also RN aircraft at Iwo and Okinawa. Never heard that before.
Kev, do you have any data on claims and such?

If I remember correctly, the discussion was over an RAE report that tested clipped wing Vb's, and said it was not recommended. One of the reasons being would hamper carrier operations.
I pointed out that Seafire LIII's had a much more powerful Merlin 55M and although report may have been accurate when produced it didn't mean there was no benefit to clipping later variants/marks.

As for British Pacific Fleet - It did indeed take part in the Okinawa campaign as part of Task Force 57, Seafires primarily being used for fleet defence.
They also participated in the some of the final operations against the Japanese mainland.

By the end of the war there were 12 Seafire sqns, 8 of which were L III's, the remaining four L IIc's with the Merlin 32.

Found four Seafire sqns (up to now, and all LIII's) that were part of the BPF - 801, 880, 887, 894

Sidenote - Interesting PDF here -
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/LondonGazette/38308.pdf

[Phtom]

Good information guys!
I never really realized how much they were used in the pacific.  Is there any information on how many were used in the Med and in the Atlantic?

[Charge]

Intersting indeed. How many victories did the Seafires rack up?

-C+

[Karnak]

The last dogfight of WWII was between Seafire L.IIIs and A6M5 Zeros.

[Kev367th]

Did find this for two Seafire sqns during their attachment to the BPF -
887 sqn - 12 kills
894 sqn - 10 kills

Best day 15 Aug 1945 - 801 sdn and 880 sdn : 8 kills with no losses (the last WWII dogfight).

Yup Karnak - In fact some time ago it was a scenario we did, only one of two scenrios involving Seafires and both would have been the LIII.
One of the reasons I'd like to see one in AH2, plus it can double for a late 42 Vc.

[storch]

Originally posted by Karnak
The last dogfight of WWII was between Seafire L.IIIs and A6M5 Zeros.

where? that might be an interesting set up to run in the AvA.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by storch
where? that might be an interesting set up to run in the AvA.

Off the coast of Japan.  I don't know off hand more than that.  I would need to look it up, although Kev might know it.

[Kev367th]

Will dig some more info out on it -

Briefly - It was part of a what was to be a series of strikes against targets near Tokyo the morning of Aug 15 1945.
Seafires of 801 and 880 sqn were escorting Avengers.
To increase range they were carrying modified U.S. droptanks. (approx 50% increase in range)
The second flight was recalled after cessation of hostilites.
May have flown off HMS Indefatigable (try saying that after a few beers).

Unfortunately Storch the IIc is a really poor and not acceptable stand-in for L III.
Especially as our IIc is the uncommon early Merlin 46 one.
The Seafire LIII would have the same performance as our 'old' Spit Vc.
Whereas our current Seafire has the performance of the current Vb.
Basically the current Seafire is an F model the Seafire III was an L (LF) model.

[Edit] More info - A complete explanation is in June 2001 Aeroplane Monthly pages 51-55.

Extract - (happened over Tokyo Bay)

 On 15th August, 1945, 3 Seafire IIIs of 887 Squadron, flying from HMS Indefatigable, were providing top cover for Avengers and Fireflies flying at 1000ft, and set on making attacks in the Tokyo area.
Four Seafires from 894 Squadron, flying 1000ft above the attack aircraft, provided close escort, and the three Seafires from 887 Squadron gave top cover 3000ft above the close support Seafires.
A dozen A6M5c Zeroes from the 302nd Kokutai, based at Atsugi, attacked, and, in the ensuing battle, which took place over Tokyo Bay, the leader of the top cover trio, Sub Lt Victor Lowden, hit five, destroying two, and was credited with a third, shared with Sub Lt W J Williams.

The third Seafire F III pilot, Sub Lt Gerry Murphy, shot down two Zeroes in turning combat, which, to quote David Brown's fine book, 'The Seafire', "should have favoured the enemy", but "ended with them both being shot down by some fine deflection shooting."

The Royal Navy / FAA contribution to the Far East war goes largely unrecognised. The "Pacific War" became totally associated with the U.S. only.
Yet in July and Aug 1945 British Carriers were responsible for one quarter of all enemy shipping sunk, some 356000+ tons .
Definately the forgotton contribution.

Thinking about it - They were used
Europe
Meditteranean
N. Africa
Far East
Pacific
Atlantic

Possibly one of the few aircraft that saw service in just about ALL theatres.

[Debonair]

from the book by the BPF seafire pilot, i forget the exact details, but they had some sort of G-suits so maybe turning combat, depending on how many Gs they were turning at, was in their favor...

[Charge]

"Unfortunately Storch the IIc is a really poor and not acceptable stand-in for L III. "

IMO it is an adequate stand in against A6M5. It would make a nice Snapshot.

-C+

[storch]

ya I'm lamenting the lack and overall poor quality of spits in this game.  shame really when you consider that it should still be a frontline fighter.  

[Kev367th]

Look at the engagement -

Seafires close support @ 2000ft
Seafires for cap @ 5000ft

Now look corresponding speeds F IIc, L III

IIc - Wont even get close to 327mph until 17,000ft.
LIII -  2k : 275kts (  316mph  ) at 5k : 285kts ( 327mph )

Now if as I had requested the IIc had been given the Merlin 32, which they ALL ended up with, and still think it should get Merlin 32. To base the Seafire IIc on the initial 100 or so (which got the 32 eventually) out of over 400 produced. -

L IIc - 2k 324mph, 5k 339mph.

Either way you look at it performance wise the F IIc with Merlin 46 (ours) is nowhere near a good sub, apart from the fact it has a hook.

So if you mean it's a Seafire and has a hook therefore its a good sub for an L III, your badly mistaken. For the exact reverse reason people wouldn't have the late 42 Vc (old spit V) doubling for an early Vc.

Note - figures may be off +- 5mph either way due to the graph being hard to read.

[Karnak]

Our Seafire Mk IIc is fine for a scenario against the A6M5b.

[storch]

I will say this.  if you take the example of the 110C-4b with the DB601N engine of which only a handful were made, that being the apex of the early war 110 developements then you could argue why not apply that across the board for all combatants.  that is to say why not showcase the very best of them all?  i'm ignorant of the amount of work that it takes to model a fighter for this game but why not just model the complete line up from 1939-1945. The spit, 109, 190 Hurri, A6M, F4F, F4U, F6F, TBM, SB2C, P38, P40, P47and P51 that is every model ever fielded?  would it really be that difficult?  Imagine the A36 Apache and the 4 hispano allison engined MustangI?