Author Topic: Al-Qaida Threats  (Read 891 times)

Offline Sky Viper

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Al-Qaida Threats
« on: October 18, 2001, 07:49:00 AM »
ABC News

Time to turn up the heat!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2001, 09:11:00 AM »
"A top deputy of Osama bin Laden has reportedly said U.S. troops will suffer the same fate in Afghanistan they did in Somalia, where bodies of slain soldiers were dragged through the streets."

Lest THEY forget:

"They were among 18 American soldiers who died Oct. 3 in Mogadishu. Another 77 U.S. Army troops were wounded. An estimated 300 Somalis were killed and 700 wounded during the 12-hour firefight."

And that was a mision where the full force of combined operations was not used. The Rangers went in with almost NONE of the support they have available in Afghanistan. It will be a bit tougher on the opposition with 3 carrier Air Wings, a few Spectres, armor and other stuff along to help out instead of just a few helos.

... and a bit from Richard Kidd. Some of you may have read his E-mail. He's a West Point grad that spent a lot of time in Afghanistan working on clearing mines.. and other stuff.

".....Also, those fighting us are not afraid to fight. OBL and others
do not think the US has the will or the stomach for a fight. Indeed
after  the absolutely inane missile strikes of 1998, the overwhelming
consensus was that we were cowards, who would not risk one life in face
to face combat. Rather than demonstrating our might and acting as a
deterrent, that action and others of the not so recent past, have
reinforced the perception that the US does not have any "will" and that
were are morally and spiritually corrupt.

.....While I would never want to advocate American casualities, it is
essential that we communicate to OBL and all others watching that we can
and will "engage and destroy the enemy in close combat." As mentioned
above, we should not try to gain or hold terrain, but Infantry
operations against the enemy are essential. There can be no excuses
after the defeat or lingering doubts in the minds of our  enemies
regarding American resolve and nothing, nothing will communicate this
except for ground combat."

I believe Kidd has been asked to express his opinions at the highest levels of the National Command Authority. I think he's being listened to as well. The whole E-mail is quite interesting.

[ 10-18-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2001, 12:39:00 PM »
Perhaps our troops who will have the responsibility to bury the dead taliban and afghan's fighting our troops should be issued a pork rind burial shroud to be used for each enemy interment.

Just a thought...    :p


Mav

[ 10-18-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]
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Offline batdog

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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2001, 12:53:00 PM »
Yea... havent we heard this before about Americans... and each time we hand them thier ass. You'd think these handsomehunkes would take a good look at our history.


xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

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Offline easymo

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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2001, 01:08:00 PM »
These guys remind me of the black knight, in Monty Pythons quest for the holy grail.  Both arms missing, hopping on one leg. Saying. "Come on ya coward. Fight"

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2001, 02:51:00 PM »
Reportedly, when American troops pulled out of Mogadishu, Bin Laden concluded American fighters lacked courage and the will to fight. Bin Laden probably did not know that those 18 Rangers stayed behind only because they REFUSED to leave the DEAD body of thier chopper pilot, which was pinned underneath his downed chopper. By the time they freed the body of the pilot, 18 Rangers had died at their guns, not to mention the wounded.

It was the administration and the politicians that lacked the will to fight, not the US Army. Thankfully, our country is in better hands today...
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Udie

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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr:

It was the administration and the politicians that lacked the will to fight, not the US Army. Thankfully, our country is in better hands today...


 Man don't get me started on this one!!!! Clinton tied their hands behind their backs.  Just imagine if the commanders had the tanks they asked for, but Clinton woulnd't give them.

 10:1 odds, or more, and our guys faught their way out, pretty outstanding if you ask me.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by easymo:
These guys remind me of the black knight, in Monty Pythons quest for the holy grail.  Both arms missing, hopping on one leg. Saying. "Come on ya coward. Fight"

No, I'd have to say it reminds me of the part where his torso is on the ground with no legs or arms saying "Where you going? I can still bite you!" (or something like that)
-SW

Offline weazel

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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2001, 04:39:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Udie:



 Man don't get me started on this one!!!! Clinton tied their hands behind their backs.  Just imagine if the commanders had the tanks they asked for, but Clinton woulnd't give them.

Gee... did you consider that without any support from Congress, the Senate, or American citizens that any president becomes impotent?

It doesn't matter who the president is, without support from his constituants he's nothing more than a figurehead.

If you want to spread the blame around look no further than the republicans snapping at his heels like rabid dogs during that time period.... instead of focusing on the REAL enemys of America.

There's more than one way to let your country down, or be a traitor.

[ 10-18-2001: Message edited by: weazel ]

Offline Udie

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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2001, 05:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by weazel:


Gee... did you consider that without any support from Congress, the Senate, or American citizens that any president becomes impotent?

It doesn't matter who the president is, without support from his constituants he's nothing more than a figurehead.

If you want to spread the blame around look no further than the republicans snapping at his heels like rabid dogs during that time period.... instead of focusing on the REAL enemys of America.

There's more than one way to let your country down, or be a traitor.

[ 10-18-2001: Message edited by: weazel ]

 oh please dude you are completely freaking crazy man.  Go ask the generals in charge how much support they got from Clinton.  The only scandal at the time of this fight was the white water scandal and it wasn't even full force yet.  


 IN FACT, wasn't this before the '94 "Republican Revolution"???? Werent' the democrats in charge of the executive and the legislative?!?!?!?

 Your hatered of the right is blinding you...

Offline Toad

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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2001, 05:20:00 PM »
Weazel, check this page out... it's a "lessons learned" critique of Somalia.
 http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/allardch2.html


"...Ultimately, the manhunt for Aideed led to the commitment of Task Force Ranger and to the climactic battle in Mogadishu on the night of 3-4 October 1993.

This deepening involvement of U.S. forces in combat operations during UNOSOM II has been criticized as "mission creep," despite the fact that these changes in both mission and direction clearly resulted from specific decisions reached by the national command authorities.


....These same operational security concerns were apparently at the heart of MG Montgomery's request to add armor capabilities to the QRF from U.S. sources rather than relying on those already available from the coalition partners in Somalia. Although this request represented a clear signal that the level of violence was escalating yet again, there was no comprehensive reassessment of the mission at the national level. Instead, MG Montgomery's request for armor support was refused in a decision that has received wide public attention in light of the fateful Ranger operation that took place on the night of 3-4 October 1993. When the Rangers came under intense hostile fire, it rapidly became clear that the QRF lacked the capability to rescue them."


For those who don't "read between the lines" what is being said is that the military was handed one mission to start with and prepared for that. Then the mission got larger and more dangerous... "mission creep"... by directive of the "National Command Authority".... the Prez.

Then the military was directed to do something that required heavier forces than they had been authorized to use and the Major General in charge requested these forces to perform the mission. The mission was not reassessed at the "national level"  :rolleyes: and the request of the "on scene commander" was denied and the mission went on ... with the disasterous results the Major General was worried about to begin with.

Another view? The Secretary of Defense did it!
 http://www.netnomad.com/Sloyan2.html


At the time of the Sept. 9 fighting, Hoar was in the city, meeting with his local commander, Army Maj. Gen. Thomas Montgomery. With the withdrawal of most combat forces, the remaining 1,120 combat soldiers were without armored personnel carriers. To deal with the increasing threat, Montgomery requested four M-1 Abrams tanks, 14 Bradley Fighting Vehicles and some heavy artillery.

"Hoar approved the request and sent it up the chain of command," said a U.S. military official. "Hoar made phone calls to the Pentagon before he sent the formal request."

On Sept. 23 the request, titled "Protection of Forces in Somalia," was rejected by Aspin. "It's not going to happen," he said. According to his aides, the defense secretary feared the additional equipment would signal to a reluctant Congress and American voters a deeper U.S. commitment."

In any event, it was a huge mistake. Immediately after the Rangers were killed, Montgomery got the armor.


Who was then the National Command Authority again?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline weazel

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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2001, 06:11:00 PM »
Good argument Toad, excerpts from one of your  links.

But the shift was quickly attacked in Congress, most notably
      by Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W. Va.), chairman of the appropriations
      committee. He vowed to cut off U.S. funds for the expanded mission,
      claiming it should "either be specifically endorsed by Congress
      or we should pack up and go home. My vote is for the latter,"
      he said. Byrd noted he was inspired, in part, by his failure
      to vigorously oppose the Vietnam War.


Info about Byrd:

In 1989, for the first time, Senator Byrd had the opportunity to serve
as Chairman of the powerful Senate Appropriations Committee, on which he has held membership since the beginning of 1959.  Also in 1989, Senator
Byrd was unanimously elected President pro tempore of the Senate, a post that placed him third in line of succession to the Presidency and gave
him the distinction of having held more leadership positions in the U.S.
Senate than any other Senator of any party in Senate history.  
In June 2001, in an unprecedented shift of leadership, Senator Byrd regained
the chairmanship of the Senate Appropriations Committee and was re-elected
President pro tempore of the Senate.


Granted he isn't a Republican but.....

At the same time Democratic leaders were having difficulty restraining congressional opposition
      to the fighting in Somalia. Eventually the House would vote overwhelmingly
      to either restrict U.S. involvement to humanitarian aid or require
      an American withdrawal.


I still stand by my post, where was the support for the mission once we were there?

Udie I don't *hate* the <lol> "right", I hate hypocrasy and waffling no matter the ideology.

The media, elected officials, and gutless cowards who don't support a standing President deserve the shame for their acts

Offline Toad

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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2001, 06:52:00 PM »
Sometimes support is handed to you... like the support Bush jr has right now. The acts of the terrorists guaranteed a united reaction.

Sometimes you have to build support for what needs to be done.

Once again, look at:
 http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/allardch1.html

...."U.S. involvement in Somalia proceeded through three stages: Operation Provide Relief, a humanitarian assistance mission; Operation Restore Hope, an operation that combined humanitarian assistance with limited military action; and UNOSOM II, a peace enforcement mission involving active combat and nation-building .

...The 50 UNOSOM observers sent in did not make a noticeable difference in either ending hostilities or securing relief supplies but in July, the United Nations asked for increased airlifts for food. President Bush responded by ordering U.S. forces to support Operation Provide Relief from 15 August 1992 through 9 December 1992.


....Despite the reinforcement of UNOSOM throughout the next several months, the security situation grew worse. In November, a ship laden with relief supplies was fired upon in the harbor at Mogadishu, forcing its withdrawal before the badly needed supplies could be brought ashore. In the United States and elsewhere, public distress grew and, on 4 December 1992, President George Bush announced the initiation of Operation Restore Hope.

Jan. 20, 1993, Clinton inaguarated

...These disagreements delayed but did not ultimately prevent the formation of UNOSOM II, officially established by Security Council Resolution 814 on 26 March 1993. The Resolution was significant in several ways:

The Council mandated the first ever U.N.-directed peacekeeping operation under the Chapter VII enforcement provisions of the Charter, including the requirement for UNOSOM II to disarm the Somali clans

It explicitly endorsed the objective of rehabilitating the political institutions and economy of a member state

It called for building a secure environment throughout the country, including the northern region that had declared its independence.

...Rather than being in charge, U.S. participation in this operation was primarily conceived in terms of logistical support, with over 3,000 personnel specifically committed to that mission. Significantly, however, the United States was also asked to provide a Quick Reaction Force—some 1,150 soldiers from the US Army's 10th Mountain Division—that would operate under the tactical control of the Commander, U.S. Forces, Somalia."

OK, the initial two operations basically had popular US public support. Feed the starving Somalis, when the food ship was fired upon, limited military action to ensure delivery. That was Bush's mandate.

Clinton takes over in '93 and a major expansion in the UN force is required for "peacekeeping and disarming" the "rebel" forces. This is where the public support evaporated. The US public, never to happy to have US troops under UN command, began to withdraw support. It's in the new reports of the time. A band-aid is put on the problem by having US troops under US tactical control; it wasn't enough to restore public support.

The "kill shot" came from the "mission creep". From peacekeeping and disarmament to "snatching" the enemy warlord commander.

 http://www.netnomad.com/Sloyan1.html

"It was Aug. 22, and President Bill Clinton was vacationing at Martha's Vineyard when word arrived of another attack on U.S. soldiers in Somalia.

No one was killed, but a land mine wounded six Americans when it destroyed their vehicle in the streets of Mogadishu. It had been detonated by a Somali spotter using a remote-controlled device - the identical method used in two earlier attacks. One of those, on Aug. 8, had killed four U.S. Army military policemen.

For Clinton, the Aug. 22 attack was the final straw. That night, on his orders, Delta Force commandos from Ft. Bragg, N.C., a helicopter detachment from Ft. Campbell, Ky., and Army Rangers from Ft. Benning, Ga., were en route to Somalia.

Once there, the clandestine Special Operations force would coordinate with a CIA team that had been in place for more than a month. Their mission: Capture Gen. Mohamed Farrah Aidid, the dominant political leader in one of the world's poorest countries.

Once Aidid was in custody, Delta Force would whisk him to a third-country ship off the coast of Somalia, where the warlord would be tried for murder.

"We were going to set Aidid aside," said one senior Clinton adviser, using the White House euphemism for what was more commonly known among officials as the "snatch" operation."

That's where he totally lost the support of the people and the Congress. Mission creep without the necessary increase in resources to accomplish the mission, resulting in the death of the Rangers and the CNN broadcast of dead soldiers being drug through the streets.

Right there, he had a choice. Go kick some *ss big time or retreat. He chose to retreat.


...The crisis came into full view on 5 June 1993, when 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed in an ambush by Aideed supporters. The United Nations Security Council Resolution 837, passed the next day, called for the immediate apprehension of those responsible—and quickly led to U.S. forces being used in a highly personalized manhunt for Aideed. After a series of clashes involving U.S. Rangers and other units, a major engagement occurred on 3 October in which 18 Americans were killed and 75 wounded—the bloodiest battle of any U.N. peacekeeping operation. Shortly thereafter, President Clinton announced the phased withdrawal of American troops that would end by 31 March 1994. U.S. forces largely were confined to force protection missions from this change of mission until the withdrawal was completed.

....In the aftermath of the Oct. 3 battle, Aidid emerged with a global reputation by withstanding American military wrath and winning Clinton's support for a Somali-based political settlement.

Clinton seemed to underline the debacle by announcing a March 31 deadline for retreat from the East African country. In hoisting a diplomatic white flag, the president portrayed himself as a victim of events controlled by the United Nations on a Somali mission that Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali called "peace enforcement."

"We cannot let a charge we got under a UN resolution to do some police work - which is essentially what it is, to arrest suspects - turn into a military mission," Clinton said in the aftermath of the Oct. 3 battle."

Who turned it into a military "snatch" operation without adequate resources for the task?

Only one answer.

It wasn't Byrd or the Congress that screwed the pooch on this one.  The same thing happens every time ANY President doesn't listen to the guys that actually know the job.

Had those Rangers had 4 M-1A tanks and APC's do you think it would have turned out differntly? The M-1A is essentially impervious to anything the Somalis had to shoot at it.

The mission was essentially over when the disaster occurred:

"...Gallagher explained how 142 Rangers had been on the verge of a 12-minute drive to safety with 25 prisoners when a Delta Team helicopter crashed. It was about 4:15 p.m.

Less than an hour earlier the helicopter had been one of six Blackhawks that dropped 90 Rangers and Delta Force soldiers into the middle of Aidid's neighborhood near the Olympic Hotel. The group of Aidid supporters had been captured, and the escape convoy had pulled into place with another 52 Rangers aboard to provide covering fire.

But now rescuing the crew of the downed helicopter became paramount. "We weren't going to leave those guys," Gallagher said. From a defensive position near the hotel, Lt. Tom Di Tomasso saw the Blackhawk crashing four blocks away. With 13 men from his platoon, Di Tomasso immediately began moving to the crash site.

While Di Tomasso was on foot, most of the Rangers were aboard armored jeeps - Humvees with bulletproof windshields, doors and tops - and unarmored trucks. The halting, twisting drive toward the downed helicopter through a maze of narrow Mogadishu streets became a bloodbath."

Would it have been different if M-1A tanks had gone to aid the helo crew?

Not Congress. Not the public support.

Once again the historical American failure of the suits failing to listen to the soldiers.


(..and while I can't prove it or find sources, I think the SAME FORKING MISTAKE was made on the way to Baghdad in the Gulf War. Yeah, I'm talking about Bush Sr.

IMO, we'd have been better off rolling on and dealing with whatever we had to do AFTER Saddam. Especially in light of the present situation; we may be going back anyway. We governed Japan for a while, as we rebuilt it. It could have worked.)

OK, that's all.. I'm done.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline weazel

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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2001, 07:09:00 PM »
Toad, we can chase our tails for days.  ;)

The bottom line is if we have troops in harms way then it's AMERICAS DUTY to support them in the mission, anything less is disgraceful.

That goes for the President, Senate, Congress, and above all the people they are fighting and dying for - the American people.

I read some reports today about Afghanistan that remind me of the mistakes made in Vietnam.

It's been bugging me all day and overflowed a bit.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2001, 07:27:00 PM »
Anytime a politicians minions run a war, soldiers pay with blood for their ignorance of War.

Now, the very speed with which we as citizens can see the development of the conflict via the media, those stupid fediddlein dickheaded politicans feel a need to influence it. Invariably and ineveitably screwing the pooch..

I'd much rather our Military leaders were handed an order from the politicans that said "WIN", and were henceforth prohibited influence in the process.

Leave the media and the politicans outta the loop. Let the battlefield commanders fight the war. Show us the film after the enemy capitulates.

Nice treatsie Toad. <S!>
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