Author Topic: How would the P-38 have performed...  (Read 3974 times)

Offline zorstorer

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2006, 10:33:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
...although the FM-2 did see service in a niche role into 1945.
...



What was that niche?  Jeep Carriers?  ( I have no idea )   :)

Offline Squire

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2006, 01:55:58 AM »
CC, Jeep Carriers (CVEs), in primarily the anti-kamikaze role, which they did very good at.
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Offline gripen

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2006, 03:48:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Actually, the G6 series Allison was available long before 1944.


At least according to Whitney, the G series reached production stage 1946 (some flight testing 1945). Some features of the G series were introduced during production of the E and F series (late 1944 or 1945).

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2006, 06:26:22 AM »
The G series was not produced until late 45 or early 46, because the planes that used it weren't being produced. It was however fully developed and ready for production. The twin Mustang was originally supposed to have used the Merlin, but when the war ended, so did the cheap license to produce the Packard version of the Merlin. So the production of the G6 series was cranked up.

It is true, the F series, namely the 15/17/30 models, used the majority of the features of the G6. The difference was the supercharger. It was felt the P-38 didn't need the new trick supercharger, since it had a turbocharger. However, the new supercharger would have allowed the P-38 more power, and allowed it to maintain sea level power to well over 35K.

The reason that the new supercharger didn't seem to be such a big deal anyway is that until mid 43 or so, the USAAC didn't seem to grasp the need for very high altitude performance. Too late they realized that performance above 20K was at least as important as below.

A P-40, or a P-39 for that matter, with over 500 more HP at 25K, would have been much more valuable, especially to the pilot, than what was actually produced. The USAAC and the War Production Board proved to be far more short sighted and politically/profit motivated than was good for the guys doing the fighting. Regardless of whether some planes were being "phased out", they were still being produced and sent into combat.  They should have been produced with the best possible engines and systems, especially when it wouldn't cost much more, and wouldn't slow production. The G6 series could have been phased in without much if any production delay.

The situation was somewhat similar to the idiots who decided that it would be much faster and cheaper to make the first run of M-16 rifles without a chrome lined barrel, and to get the ammunition made with cheaper but dirtier powder. They shot themselves in the foot there too. They sent men into combat with far less useful and effective weapons than could easily have been provided. One need look no further than the Sherman tank in World War II. Generals running armored units as far back as 41-42 knew that the Sherman was not enough tank, and said so loudly. Not nearly enough. And yet it was 1945 before the Pershing saw any real service, if then. It is inexcusable to send men into combat with cheap ineffective weapons knowing that they could and should easily be equipped with better weapons.

The point is, it should be noted that despite the reputation today of having the finest and most technologically advanced weapons and systems, in the past the U.S. was known as much or more for expediency and ineffectiveness for the sake of volume and profit.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 06:55:02 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
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Offline Saxman

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2006, 10:41:29 AM »
Isn't that the history of warfare? Generals and politicians ignoring the guys actually doing the fighting all for the benefit of the bottom line and public opinion, or just out of sheer "I've got the stars and you don't" arrogance? I mean, look what they did to Billy Mitchell.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Debonair

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2006, 03:08:02 PM »
accoring to early 30's army air corps boss Bejamin Foulois, Billy Mitchell did all that to himself

Offline Treize69

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2006, 03:32:05 PM »
Another reason they never installed a Merlin on the P-38 was that there was no "reverse" turning Merlin engine available. They would have lost precious time engineering one, and they couldn't afford any delays in production (which was the WPB stated reason for not approving the P-38K).

Alternative would have been to do away with handed propellors, but that would have negated a lot of the handling characteristics that made the P-38 so poular.
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Offline Squire

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2006, 04:55:11 PM »
Im not arguing what they should have done from the beggining (re the turbochargers), im just pointing out that by the time they fully realised their error, that better fighter types were already being phased in, such as the P-47 and P-38s, in quantity.
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Offline gripen

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2006, 04:57:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The G series was not produced until late 45 or early 46, because the planes that used it weren't being produced. It was however fully developed and ready for production.


What's the source for this? According to Whitney there appear to have been a lot developement going still going on 1945 (first flight tests took place 1945).

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Offline RTSigma

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2006, 05:23:39 PM »

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Offline Widewing

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2006, 10:28:14 PM »
Gripen and I have hashed out the P-38 quite a bit over the years, here and on usenet. Ultimately, we agree that the P-38 was a dead end in terms of development. The basic design was past mature by 1944. It was limited by a wing design that allowed for a relatively low critical Mach of just .68, whereas virtually all of its contemporaries boasted .75 through .80 Mach. At high altitude, a low critical Mach means that buffeting is as near as a lazy relative.

While many of the initial deficiencies of the P-38 were corrected over time, basic problems endemic to the design remained. Complex system controls, poor heating, generally poor outward vision, high maintenence costs, high initial purchase cost and the limitations of the wing design. All of these things conspired against the Lightning. It was competitive throughout the war, but clearly had no future beyond VJ day.

My regards,

Widewing
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Offline Angus

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2006, 03:12:01 PM »
The twin mustang was mentioned before on the thread. Does anyone have some specs on that? How did it compare to a P38 for instance?
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Offline Kev367th

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2006, 03:29:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Gripen and I have hashed out the P-38 quite a bit over the years, here and on usenet. Ultimately, we agree that the P-38 was a dead end in terms of development. The basic design was past mature by 1944. It was limited by a wing design that allowed for a relatively low critical Mach of just .68, whereas virtually all of its contemporaries boasted .75 through .80 Mach. At high altitude, a low critical Mach means that buffeting is as near as a lazy relative.

While many of the initial deficiencies of the P-38 were corrected over time, basic problems endemic to the design remained. Complex system controls, poor heating, generally poor outward vision, high maintenence costs, high initial purchase cost and the limitations of the wing design. All of these things conspired against the Lightning. It was competitive throughout the war, but clearly had no future beyond VJ day.

My regards,

Widewing


Think that goes for just about every prop driven plane by the end WW2.

Spits had been pushed TO THE LIMIT. Same goes for 190/109.
Even the Spiteful with it's promising performance was shelved with the advent of the jet era.
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Offline LePaul

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2006, 08:51:24 PM »
Allow me to think out loud and ask a question...

Over the years I've seen many homebuilt kit P-51's come....the Stewart S-51 comes to mind.  Has any such think happened with a P-38 style plane?  You'd think with todays turboprop technology it would be something really impressive.

But then again, I dont know the legalities and licensing of blueprints for a late-model P-38 :)   Im assuming Lockheed aint into licensing em?

Offline Bronk

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How would the P-38 have performed...
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2006, 11:45:46 AM »
I thought this was an interesting read.

LINK
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html

P-38 with merlins and HS prop.

Not sure of accuracy  just thought i'd share a find.

Bronk
« Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 11:48:26 AM by Bronk »
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