Okay, enough about guns and capital punishment. Let's talk about the future ...

[leonid]

Let's talk about genetic engineering, eugenics.  And let's put in a helping of nanotechnology.  These things are all becoming less science fiction, and more reality.  Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic about it all.  It can (and will) be used for military purposes (place your worst nightmare here), but genetic engineering could also be an evolutionary process for humanity as well.  It's just a matter of if we have the vision for it at this point in time.

[RAM]

It can do (and will do) a lot of good for the human being.

It can do (and WILL do) a lot of harm to the human being.

Being as we are, humans soon will start experimenting with other human beings. CLonation will happen, no matter how questionable is ethically. Genetical manipulation wil happen, no matter that people say it is monstruous.

I'd rather not imagine how will this affect in the military. Experiments will happen. Experiments with alive humans. I'd rather not be one of them.

And I don't want to see the day when parents choose the sex, hair color, eye color, intelligence, etc of their sons. Human race is so wonderful because variety and lack of perfection that makes us try to go beyond our capabilities...

Genetical manipulating will be like "cheating". And I dont like it.

I have the feelings that the bad side of it far outweight the good side...but if someday I have (I pray it never happens) a son or a daughter,or a relative, with a genetic illness ,then I am sure that for me the good side would outweight the bad one.

Anyway, for the human race as a whole it will be bad (by today's ethical codes, that as everything, changes with time).Natural Evolution has proven a good way to improve our race...

I'm not that sure that a genetically induced "boost" will do any good to us.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-20-2000).]

[leonid]

Yes, there are very strong ethical, religious, and even scientific reasons against genetic engineering.  But like you, I think it's going to happen anyway.  For Humans, if it can be done, it will be done.  That's just the way we are.

[StSanta]

Cool. Soon, there shall be no ugly stupid people in the world.

Then one century later, something te human race hadn't foreseen about genes kicks in.

Mother nature decides to show who's the boss.

The only human survivors will be the gun toting lunatics that have resisted assimlation in Montana.

 .

No, seriously, great potential both ways. I guess I'm just jealous that some future kids will have way better genes than I have. Diversity might become an issue if every human on earth took part in such a thing, but that is not likely to happen.

Then we have the true problem of "new" vs "old" humans. I don't need to mention where such arguments have led us in the past.

I.e we need to tightly control this if we don't want it to go sour on us. And I think we will be able to do so. Unless, of course, the knowledge is patentet by private companies expoliting the human genome and so forth for its own materialistic purposes.

Don't f*ck with evolution. It'll bite back, and bite back hard. Almost all human attempts to "fix" something has led eto total failure. Just look at what happened with the "killer bees" and the Australian eco systems. And that's on a very small scale compared to the potential of genetic engineering.

So, caution and care is definitely the way to go. But, we are going there, so we might as well make damned sure we don't take a wrong turn.



------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Dowding]

What? No more gun discussions? But I just can't get enough of those gun issues!!!!  

I've wanted to talk about this for a while, ever since the case in the States, where that family was allowed to create a foetus which would have the correct bone type for their dying daughter. I personally agree with what they did; the child that was created will have a very special place in that family.

We've had our fair share of genetic engineering issues arising over here in the last few years. 'Dolly' the sheep, genetically engineered crops being destroyed by protestors and now a new case. A family in Scotland wanted to have a girl to replace the daughter who died in a bonfire accident. The chances of having a girl 'naturally' were very slim; they already had four sons. In the end, the High Court refused their request and forbid the treatment which would allow them to conceive in this way.

The controls in place have to be religiously adhered to and discussion has to take place on any ammendments.

I don't like reactionary attitudes to anything, but I believe we have to be careful with this 'Brave New World' we seem to be creating. We've indirectly interfering with evolution for millenia - the fact that we can control our environment, and not be controled it is testament to this fact. We now have the foundations of the ability to alter the makeup of our very beings. It may be some time off, but one day every characteristic will alterable.

I personally have no problem, per se, with altering physical characteristics. However, the sex of a child should not be toyed with; this would have devastating effects on the demographics of a society where this procedure was routine.

The thing is, these expensive procedures will not be able to all - just to the most wealthy. As Santa says, there will be an underclass of 'imperfect' people and I can't see how descrimination would not develop. Has anyone seen 'Gattaca'?

Gene therapy to eliminate diseases like Parkinson's, Alzheimar's is something which I would support. Perhaps there is something to be said for eliminating all diseases like Down's Syndrome, I don't know.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:

I've wanted to talk about this for a while, ever since the case in the States, where that family was allowed to create a foetus which would have the correct bone type for their dying daughter. I personally agree with what they did; the child that was created will have a very special place in that family.

They not only "created a foetus". The daughter now has life when she was going to die.

And she has a new little brother   ...you can bet that this family can be glad about both things  

This is perfectly ethic. Those parents have saved a live and brought another to this world.

Another thing would've been to "cultive" the foetus, get the part they need, and then destroy it. That is NOT ethic, is to "use" the power to give life to our own interests, only to destroy it after we ended needing it.

Another thing would be, too, to "select" the genes of a son not to save your daughter's live but because interest only (hey doc, I want a blue eyed blonde, intelligent male. Please select the correct ingredients and lets go with it!)--------->Sux.

There is a very thin line between "right" and "wrong", between "acceptable" and "unacceptable". I think that this family's case is clearly an example of "right" and "acceptable". And a good example of what I mean when I say that It can be good (It WILL be good).

Lets hope we see no examples of "it can be bad (It WILL be bad). Sadly I am quite sure that we will see it  
 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-20-2000).]

[Gunthr]

I'm very excited about this fascinating technology. It's incredible to think that it's actually possible to do these things on that level. There are many spin-offs from this technology that do not raise ethical questions.... I'm betting this is going to take off and make a lot of money for the astute investors.

---------------------------------------------
Confucious say: "Person who fly upside down have crack-up."

Confucious also say: "Person who ditch airclaft in strawberry patch in big jam."

[StSanta]

I have a fetus in a lab right now, a clone of me.

Will use it to repair worn parts of me as I grow older.

 

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Gunthr]

Me too. You will find out when you get a bit older that the back up sexual organ comes in handy  

[AKSeaWulfe]

They combined 10 rabbit's genes (still eggs) with the gene that produces the green translucent glow in some jellyfish in the atlantic ocean. I've seen the jellyfish, was walking a beach shrimping with some people when the water literally lit up around us. It was the coolest natural thing I've ever seen.

Now we have animals that glow in the dark under black light(green). Doooooodddd that is so f'in cool!!!!!

So long as we don't create a race of super humans that set out to genocide the current crop of real humans, I'm all for seeing how far we can go.

As far as cloning humans, I can only wonder. Why bother, other than to say "yeah we did it". I think that's about as far as it will go. You can't extend YOUR life any further by cloning yourself and believe me.. there's enough of each of us in this world, we don't need duplicates!!! ;-)

One thing that could be good about identifying what particular genes do is finding out the unborn person's mental state. Imagine if we could do away with murders, psychopaths and just general gun toting wierdos(like those kids at columbine....................).

Morals.. What good are morals if your dead because one of those things was allowed to live? ;-)

Just my opinion anyway.
-SW

[NATEDOG]

What was that book? 1984 I think it was... where they had the Alphas and Betas, the genetically perfect people, and the gammas were like worker bees. everything was genetically altered and people were harvested....... I think this guy was on to something, just about 100 years off. and if I remember correctly, there wasn't a happy ending.


------------------
Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-

".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "

[blur]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
I have a fetus in a lab right now, a clone of me.

Will use it to repair worn parts of me as I grow older.

 

LOL Santa, by the time your clone is 20 years old, it'll beat the toejam out of you and use YOU for the parts!

[AKDejaVu]

 

What was that book? 1984 I think it was... where they had the Alphas and Betas, the genetically perfect people, and the gammas were like worker bees. everything was genetically altered and people were harvested.......

Don't remember that from 1984... sounds suspiciously like the movie "Gatica" (though I never saw it).

AKDejaVu

[Dowding]

Don't think that is '1984'. I think it might be 'Brave New World', not sure though. 'Gatica' is about the guy who wants to be an astronaut, but they only accept people who born 'artificially' and he is a 'natural' with a heart defect. Great film.

I like the idea of being able to grow replacement body parts - useful if you have cancer or are involved in a bad accident.

The only problem with that Nash family (who created the kid to save their daughter) was that they had to reject the foeti that did not have the correct bone characteristics. Anti-abortionists would disagree with that, although I persoanlly beleive it was justified to save the life of the little girl.

Adds a whole new spin to the abortion debate.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-20-2000).]

[Naso]

There is already some application of genetic enginering, in the agriculture.

The ability to manipulate nature and genetics is fascinating and will be a real good think.

But, as an example, a big corporation (Novartis) have produced:
1. A breveted(sp?) plant resistant to a special chemical atomicbomb-like product, and, you guess who is the producer of the chemical? (sort of hitting you in the balls and then sell the medicament)
2. A breveted(sp?) plant resistent to most of the insects, but they produced voluntarily a mule, not capable to reproduce, so each year you have to buy again the seeds.

And you guess where they start to made special free-like offers? in third world countryes.
A couple of years and this people wiil be no more capable to feed themselves without buying this products. (meanwhile the original plant will be extinct)

Powerful tool in the hands of profit, bad news for humankind.