Author Topic: Atheism and the USA, followup  (Read 9381 times)

Offline Simaril

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #210 on: May 17, 2006, 12:06:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cthen
Try running for President of the United States or heck run for City Council as a Atheist and see how far you get.  

If you win I will convert to christianity on the spot as I have just witnessed my first live "miracle" :O



Cthen



Heehee.

But again, you're talking about the political activism of people who claim to be christians -- not about what christians were taught to do by the Boss.

I'd even disagree with your premise. In a city not far from here, a group of dedicated christians got elected to the school board in an offyear election. They tried to implement curriculaum changes based on their religious beliefs, not based on representing those who elected them. There was an outcry, and the next cycle they were thrown out on their ears by the non-believing, pro-evolution majority. I recall the same thing happened with Oklahoma's state board, but I may be mistaken there.

In any case, the electorate in this Midwest "bible belt" area isnt as polyester wearing, church going, as closed minded as you imply...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 12:09:35 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Hangtime

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #211 on: May 17, 2006, 12:23:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Heehee.

But again, you're talking about the political activism of people who claim to be christians -- not about what christians were taught to do by the Boss.

I'd even disagree with your premise. In a city not far from here, a group of dedicated christians got elected to the school board in an offyear election. They tried to implement curriculaum changes based on their religious beliefs, not based on representing those who elected them. There was an outcry, and the next cycle they were thrown out on their ears by the non-believing, pro-evolution majority. I recall the same thing happened with Oklahoma's state board, but I may be mistaken there.

In any case, the electorate in this Midwest "bible belt" area isnt as polyester wearing, church going, as closed minded as you imply...


This is yet another excellent example of the truth.... nipped in the bud, as it were.

"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics."

Thanks, Simaril! :aok
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Offline Cthen

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #212 on: May 17, 2006, 12:49:16 PM »
Quote
n any case, the electorate in this Midwest "bible belt" area isnt as polyester wearing, church going, as closed minded as you imply...



Move a bit further south Simaril if you want the belt of the bible HEHEHE

I'm from Memphis, TN.,  home of the most churches per capita in the nation IIRC from newspaper last year.  People here are divided on many issues and if you want to win in politics you better join the "right" church first.  Even denominational differences here can mean the difference in winning or losing.  I would feel safe in saying Jewish/Catholic/Muslem ie...non protestant and you WILL lose.  You are however correct in your statement in that Christians are not "following the Boss's orders".


How can 150+ denominations all derived from 1 book be correct thinking and justified?  I can not grasp this idea as hard as I try. "Jesus said soandso"and  the faithful hear goanddo however you see fit to git r done.

I stand by my current premise,  run for election as an AVOWED (almost said by GOD heheh) Atheist and win.  This is near impossible here.

PS>>> I post and speak with liberal amounts of trying to get people to think for themselves instead of being sheep.   :huh :rofl



Cthen
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 12:55:03 PM by Cthen »

Offline Hap

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #213 on: May 17, 2006, 12:52:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cthen
How can 150+ denominations all derived from 1 book be correct thinking and justified.


how right you are :aok

hap

p.s. humans have a long history of not reading the directions :(

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #214 on: May 17, 2006, 02:08:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Lukster: Make up your mind.  Either atheism is a religion or it isn't.  If it's a religion, then we can form an "atheist church" and avoid paying taxes.  If it isn't, then you retract what you said earlier.


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Offline Simaril

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #215 on: May 17, 2006, 02:16:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cthen

...snip...

How can 150+ denominations all derived from 1 book be correct thinking and justified?  I can not grasp this idea as hard as I try. "Jesus said soandso"and  the faithful hear goanddo however you see fit to git r done.

...snip....

Cthen


People have different personalities and styles, so even in an ideal world there might be associations of like minded believers. Where one group might like informality to enjoy God's approachability, another might be most comfortable with classical worship to appreciate his majesty. Different strokes and all that.

Unfortunately, we humans are most comfortable falling back on our tribalism...which also means excluding those who are different.

So I view real world denominationalism as part of our humanity, not part of our christianity.
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Offline Vulcan

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #216 on: May 17, 2006, 02:31:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
please try to separate the behavior of SOME beleivers from the practice of Christianity as Jesus taught it.


Of course what ruins your entire reply is the know well known fact is that the bible is fair from representititve of what any guy called Jesus taught, its a collection of stories chosen from roughly 30 other texts around the 2nd or 3rd century BC by a council who decided they knew best what to teach.

Offline Simaril

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #217 on: May 17, 2006, 03:47:15 PM »
Not quite true, Vulcan....

First, just for the sake of argument -- if you accept the NT as being what it claims to be, and THEN assess Christianity on its own foundations, its fair to say that what many criticise about christians has little or nothing to do with Christianity itself.

From that perspective, what I posted is completely relevant and applicable. Nothing's ruined at all....




Second comes the question of the canon's historicity, and thats another question entirely. Your perception is common enough, but it tends to overlook the limitations inherent in documentary researcch in the first century CE.

As I recall, there are only 2 or 3 references to Jesus and Christianity in the first century outside the bible at all -- BUT that shouldnt be take n to mean that they didnt exist at the time. The surviving referenceswere in Roman governmental documents, almost as asides. There jsut isnt much else in the original for the very good reason that the kind of documents common people made in the 1st century simply didnt last and werent institutionally preserved.

The canonical councils didnt pick and choose arbitrarily; they codified consensus. The non-canonical documents people wave about now are, frankly, either obviously VERY different from biblical texts and teachings or downright silly.

In fact, do an internet search right now on "the gospel of Thomas" or the "gospel of mary" that I've seen refernces to as religious texts that have been "lost"  after having been arbitrarily rejected by the councils. Translations of these from origianl documents sound more like "new age" drivel from the 20th century, although their really Gnostic influenced.


The canon's origins are not an area of expertise for me, but I can dig around some and make an intelligent discussion of it. If you want to plunge into it, why dont we make a new thread and see if a really capable discussant like Seagoon would show up....
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 03:51:52 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Chairboy

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #218 on: May 20, 2006, 10:07:07 PM »
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Vulcan

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #219 on: May 20, 2006, 10:34:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Not quite true, Vulcan....
(snipped a lot) ...the kind of documents common people made in the 1st century simply didnt last and werent institutionally preserved.

The canonical councils didnt pick and choose arbitrarily; they codified consensus. The non-canonical documents people wave about now are, frankly, either obviously VERY different from biblical texts

Translations of these from origianl documents sound more like "new age" drivel from the 20th century, although their really Gnostic influenced.


So imagine if the government formed a council to revise the bible now, how would you feel about that?

I also find it incredibly amusing your attitude to the "new age drivel" - ie biblical teachings like the Gospel of Judas which sound a lot closer to the likes of buddhist teachings - and sounds like it teaches away from the institutionalised ways of the current christian regime.

Offline lazs2

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #220 on: May 21, 2006, 09:53:38 AM »
chair....I think that you take particular delight in anything that mocks religion and belief in god.  That is fine but you act like you are disinterested and fair when you are in reality....

more concerned about religion than a lot of religious folks... you seem to think about it a lot.  Have you even bothered to ask yourself why?   maybe in a few years..

get comfortable with yours and others beliefs.   You seem to be on a personal crusade to hurt people of faith.

you should realize that you make them angry and stubborn but that is about it.   You may even get ridiculed like you have been in this thread for your unreasonable faith based way of thinking.

People might dismiss other things you have to say because of your prejudice here.   To some of us... that is no big deal but... arguing belief or not in a supreme being seems a pretty dumb way to marginalize yourself.

It doesn't look any better on the rabid athiest than it does on the rabid christian or muslim.

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #221 on: May 21, 2006, 10:15:15 AM »
An atheist complained to a Christian friend, "You Christians have your special holidays, such as Christmas and Easter. Jews celebrate their national holidays, such as Passover and Yom Kippur. But we atheists have no recognized national holidays. It's unfair discrimination."

His friend replied, "Why don't you celebrate April first?"
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Chairboy

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #222 on: May 21, 2006, 10:20:48 AM »
Lazs, how could one little poster like myself say anything that would hurt people of faith?  If your religious convictions are as you say, how can a message thread on a BBS cause you such pain?

Something just doesn't add up here.  It's kinda like when a book of fiction (The Da Vinci Code) apparently "shook the foundations of christianity", a concept I had a hard time believing.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline lukster

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« Reply #223 on: May 21, 2006, 10:23:40 AM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
It's kinda like when a book of fiction (The Da Vinci Code) apparently "shook the foundations of christianity"


:lol

Offline Chairboy

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #224 on: May 21, 2006, 10:33:24 AM »
I agree, lukster, it IS ridiculous, but with all the protests and the racks full of counterpoint books at the bookstore, that seems to be the impression the christians are giving.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis