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Author Topic: Atheism and the USA, followup  (Read 9374 times)

Offline Vulcan

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #525 on: May 30, 2006, 12:35:56 AM »
Maybe einstein didn't mean to be taken literraly ;)
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Offline lazs2

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #526 on: May 30, 2006, 08:59:23 AM »
subaru..... I replied to you.... Yes it is possible that there is no god.  I believe that their is and freely admit that believeing so is a leap of faith.

you never replied tho..

Do you think it is possible that some kind of creator... some supreme being may exist?

lazs
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Offline deSelys

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #527 on: May 30, 2006, 09:46:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
After giving a bit more thought to your infinite creator proposition DeSelys I find it interesting. What do you mean exactly when you say that if there is a creator of time and space then it follows that there must be a creator of that creator ad infinitum?  Wouldn't that imply that time and space weren't actually created by one God but that gods are created within time and space?


Actually, I'm not discussing your faith: it is yours and I have no business telling you what you should/shouldn't believe in.

My reasoning comes from your affirmation that scientists will have to believe in one of two possibilities: there is no creator (atheism) or there is one (Intelligent Design or any other religion...).

(a scientist can also be an agnostic which is, IMHO, the more honest way to try and understand the universe).

If ID is a philosophical answer as good as any other to the universe, life and everything ;), it contains its own new questions about the designer: where does it come from? Who or what created it? Believing in ID is, IMHO, just pushing the problem a bit further. If a scientist doesn't believe that the universe comes out of nowhere or has always existed, and he feels that there must be a creator behind it, he will be breaking his own logic if he accepts that this creator comes out of nowhere/has always existed.

And there lies the catch: a lot of people think that ID could be the link between science and religion. However, ID will displace the questions about the origin and the creation of the universe to the origin and the creation of god, which are not accepted as valid by most religions.

I hope that I'm clear enough.
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Offline lukster

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #528 on: May 30, 2006, 11:02:14 AM »
I allowed for 3 possibilities from the beginning and made it clear that I thought  only those that did not believe one way or the other regarding the existence of God are the only ones without faith in this matter.
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Offline wrag

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #529 on: May 30, 2006, 05:57:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
You get that now, don't you?
Has the govt ever said you, on an individual basis, could not pray?


Actually in some areas of the U.S. the schools have said as much.

Been law suites over it.  The schools so far have lost but Yes there have been instances of people in authority insisting, and enforcing NO prayer in specific areas of America.

Some have concerns this is a growing thing.  That it will only become more of a problem in the future.
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It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline wrag

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #530 on: May 30, 2006, 06:01:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Maybe einstein didn't mean to be taken literraly ;)


I've seen continued reference to literaly.

Perhaps you should ask the person that said it what was meant by it?

There may be more to the explaination then meets the eye?
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It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #531 on: May 30, 2006, 08:17:15 PM »
Apparently I'm an absolutist - so I need to practise not taking things literally a bit.
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Offline SaburoS

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #532 on: May 30, 2006, 10:10:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
subaru..... I replied to you.... Yes it is possible that there is no god.  I believe that their is and freely admit that believeing so is a leap of faith.

you never replied tho..

Do you think it is possible that some kind of creator... some supreme being may exist?

lazs


Ahh, missed it.

No. I already answered though. If I believed it were possible, I would then be Agnostic. I would have also taken a leap of faith.
Now for those that have taken that leap of faith, do I believe that a God, Creator, Supreme Being is real to them or is possible for them? Sure, if I take what they say on face value (why wouldn't I?)....but I've pretty much said that already.

So to conclude:

I am an Atheist.
I am not Agnostic.
I have not taken a leap of faith as I have never been convinced of there being a God in the first place.

It is good though that you admit that it is possible that we Atheists could be right.

Fair enough?
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Offline lukster

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #533 on: May 30, 2006, 10:16:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Ahh, missed it.

No. I already answered though. If I believed it were possible, I would then be Agnostic. I would have also taken a leap of faith.
Now for those that have taken that leap of faith, do I believe that a God, Creator, Supreme Being is real to them or is possible for them? Sure, if I take what they say on face value (why wouldn't I?)....but I've pretty much said that already.

So to conclude:

I am an Atheist.
I am not Agnostic.
I have not taken a leap of faith as I have never been convinced of there being a God in the first place.

It is good though that you admit that it is possible that we Atheists could be right.

Fair enough?


Fair? What does fairness have to do with it? You are very devout in your faith if you won't allow for the possibility you could be wrong. I'd go so far as to call that blind faith.
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #534 on: May 30, 2006, 10:16:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
Actually in some areas of the U.S. the schools have said as much.

Been law suites over it.  The schools so far have lost but Yes there have been instances of people in authority insisting, and enforcing NO prayer in specific areas of America.

Some have concerns this is a growing thing.  That it will only become more of a problem in the future.


The schools are wrong as it is restricting free expression. Good thing the courts are seeing and ruling correctly.
You wouldn't have any links would you?
I'd definitely like to see where free religious expression has been banned (or attempted) on an individual basis. That is so wrong.
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Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline SaburoS

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #535 on: May 30, 2006, 10:23:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Fair? What does fairness have to do with it? You are very devout in your faith if you won't allow for the possibility you could be wrong. I'd go so far as to call that blind faith.


...and you would be wrong.
That's why in all honesty, you don't really believe it to possible that God could possibly not exist.
Your arguement gives it away.

My thoughts = God does not really exist, never has. The end.
You made a leap of faith, not I.
Now if you'd like to bring actual proof to the table, I'm all ears.

You won't do that though as you know you can't.

I've realized long ago that facts just can't be brought to the table when discussing faith. No one changes their mind, nor would I want you to change your mind in your belief in your God. No point to it.
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Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline lukster

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« Reply #536 on: May 30, 2006, 10:26:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
...and you would be wrong.
That's why in all honesty, you don't really believe it to possible that God could possibly not exist.
Your arguement gives it away.

My thoughts = God does not really exist, never has. The end.
You made a leap of faith, not I.
Now if you'd like to bring actual proof to the table, I'm all ears.

You won't do that though as you know you can't.

I've realized long ago that facts just can't be brought to the table when discussing faith. No one changes their mind, nor would I want you to change your mind in your belief in your God. No point to it.


huh?


Ok, I think i understand what you're saying, just not why you said it. You wanna believe you don't have faith in your beliefs that's your preogative. It's mine to tell you that you do. You don't have to listen of course.

BTW, your judgement of what I believe is very telling.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 10:38:30 PM by lukster »
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #537 on: May 30, 2006, 10:39:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
huh?


Ok, I think i understand what you're saying, just not why you said it. You wanna believe you don't have faith in your beliefs that's your preogative. It's mine to tell you that you do. You don't have to listen of course.


Faith is a belief unsupported by facts. Like I said very early in this thread, I'm a "show me" type.
I have no problem with others having a different belief structure than I.
I just don't like my character or honesty questioned on something that shouldn't be.
Notice I have yet to attack you or anyone else for their beliefs.
I have yet to question your character of honesty, even though I disagree with some of you.
Keep casting stones and judging others, though.
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Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline lukster

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #538 on: May 30, 2006, 10:42:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Faith is a belief unsupported by facts. Like I said very early in this thread, I'm a "show me" type.
I have no problem with others having a different belief structure than I.
I just don't like my character or honesty questioned on something that shouldn't be.
Notice I have yet to attack you or anyone else for their beliefs.
I have yet to question your character of honesty, even though I disagree with some of you.
Keep casting stones and judging others, though.


Actually you did call me a liar when you told me that I don't believe what I say I believe. I'm not telling you what you believe, I'm just telling you that belief in something you cannot prove is faith. You're contradicting yourself, not me.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #539 on: May 30, 2006, 10:53:48 PM »
Hmmm... aren't there some logic problems with proving a negative?
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