Atheism and the USA, followup

[Booz]

Originally posted by Arlo
Assumptive ... and missing my point. But that's ok.

  I have to assume it based on the cute snip & reply you provided since, it failed to address anything in my post. What is your point?

[lukster]

Originally posted by Booz
It does mean bunnies intelligent enough to hide easter eggs, and bring kids candy doesn't exist though.

 
 
 e=mc^2

  Matter was energy. Did energy always exist? Dunno, but I can show demonstrable evidence on a daily basis that energy does exist.
 
  I don't need to make up eternal gods, with the new quandry of explaining why they are exempt of cause, without even having demonstrable evidence of their existance to start with.

Quite less a stretch in my book.

 "Eternal matter was a being" is undecipherable to me.

My belief is that the creator of space/time is probably not composed of the substance of his creation and is not confined to existence within space and time. What this existence must be like can only be imagined by us. However, I think it takes no more faith to believe that than it does to believe the Universe may have winked into existence from nothingness of it's own volition or that the Universe is and has forever been expanding and collapsing without beginning or end. This is my argument with those who claim to be Atheist while denying their faith.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by lukster
My belief is that the creator of space/time is probably not composed of the substance of his creation and is not confined to existence within space and time. What this existence must be like can only be imagined by us.

So you believe in an imaginary being....

However, I think it takes no more faith to believe that than it does to believe the Universe may have winked into existence from nothingness of it's own volition or that the Universe is and has forever been expanding and collapsing without beginning or end. This is my argument with those who claim to be Atheist while denying their faith.

The latest observations discount the 'big crunch' theory.  It appears that the universe is acellerating its expansion, so a cyclic universe seems to have been ruled out.

The big bang (or wink as you may put it) is a logical extrapolation of general relativity and pretty much makes mathematical sense until the collision of relativity and quantum theories.  It is just a theory, and many are working on details within the theory.  

Because quantum and relativity both accurately work now, but fail in the first moments, there is no roadmap to what happened prior to the collision of quantum and relativity so any thoughts for that time are pure speculation.

No faith involved.

[lazs2]

nash... I know how much you like gray areas but... words must have meaning.    Why is it important to distinguish between agnostic or athiest?

If both words have exactly the same meaning.... then a lot of athiests are left out in the cold.  The hard core athiest who doesn't just lack a faith in god but has unshakeable faith that it is impossible for one to exist suddenly is marginalized to agnostic status.

There are two words... agnostic and athiest for a reason.   As you can see here... the "athiests" here (weak as most are in their faith) do not want to be called "agnostic" no matter how much more accurate it is...

conversely... agnostics everywhere would not like to have the word go away and be replaced by the more in your face "athiest".   It does not describe what they believe.

As for matter and creation etc... einstein and co are/were very smart.   I think they realize(d) that they are only explaining how the toys in the box we were given work after said toys were created.   At some point... there was a creation.   No one can explain the first bit of whatever.

eternal or "allways was" is no easier to grasp if it is matter or if it is a being.  It is beyond us.

pick your poison... thiest or athiest or.... don't pick and wait and see.... agnostic.

Just don't claim to be something you are not.   Do not confuse not believing or, not believing literaly, the various religious stories with proof that no god could exist.

no easter bunny doesn't mean no bunny.... no easter bunny that coes every year and hides eggs at every house does not mean no bunny in all of time never hid an egg.   Aliens may or may not exist... some who claim god does not exist aren't so sure about aliens or ghosts....  only difference in most cases is..... aliens and ghosts didn't let their puppy spot die.

lazs

[lukster]

That's not what I said and though I'm fairly certain you're just yanking my chain I'll correct you. I said that a being that exists "beyond" time and space can only be imagined. That's simply because it cannot be proven or even properly understood by a mind whose only experienced lies solely within the realm of space and time. There is concrete evidence that the Universe exists and I would suggest that even if the only "order" in the Universe is purely a perception by our minds then our minds are at least proof that order exists.  Mustn't there be some force to bring order from chaos?

What if we are seeing only an infintesimal slice of reality. What we consider to be our Universe may be only an atom in a sea of atoms, both in terms we understand like space and time as well as other dimensions we haven't yet even imagined. We may be the single dimensional point trying to describe a three dimensional reality based on our observations. Bottom line is we don't know. Anyone saying differently does so on faith.


I'm still not being clear. I mean that the nature of God's existence can only be imagined. I believe his presence can be felt and understood.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by lukster
What if we are seeing only an infintesimal slice of reality. What we consider to be our Universe may be only an atom in a sea of atoms, both in terms we understand like space and time as well as other dimensions we haven't yet even imagined.  

String theory already imagines up to 26 dimensional space.  How many fuggin dimensions do you want?

Since Quantum bizarreness describes atomic scale space and General  Relativity describes big stuff, the big stuff ain't atoms. Stephen Hawkings

We could be a pocket universe in a multi-verse sea, there are 10^^500 possiblities.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
String theory already imagines up to 26 dimensional space.  How many fuggin dimensions do you want?



We could be a pocket universe in a multi-verse sea, there are 10^^500 possiblities.

Can we agree that string theory isn't provable, at least by any methods available or even imaginable today? If the supposed fabric of our existence cannot be proven then belief in it's existence is based on faith.

Look, my argument isn't that scientists base their theories on faith, though I believe that many do. A true scientist will never cease to examine his beliefs. How can he when he knows that he doesn't even understand the fundamental nature of the fabric of his existence? To make the determination that there is no intelligent creator of time/space/? takes a huge leap of faith, imo.

[Holden McGroin]

String theory is an evolving set of ideas and there are many who are working on it throughout the world.

I would venture that there are none in the field who take it on faith, otherwise they wouldn't work on it:  They would consider it finished.

[deSelys]

Originally posted by lukster
To make the determination that there is no intelligent creator of time/space/? takes a huge leap of faith, imo.

Not more huge than believing that no super-creator created your god. If you accept the idea of one creator, you can't stop there and you'll have to accept that there is the possibility of an infinity of creator levels/generations.

[lukster]

Originally posted by deSelys
Not more huge than believing that no super-creator created your god. If you accept the idea of one creator, you can't stop there and you'll have to accept that there is the possibility of an infinity of creator levels/generations.

I'll grant that it is possible but not that it follows logically. Our perception of time is what gives us the concept of beginning and end. Existence without time is difficult to perceive. I'll argue that God is infinite and therefore not divisible into separate creators.

[Booz]

Originally posted by lukster
I'll grant that it is possible but not that it follows logically.

 sure it does
 
 

Originally posted by lukster
Our perception of time is what gives us the concept of beginning and end. Existence without time is difficult to perceive.

 simple really, absolute lack of motion  (not a particularly comfortable place to hide a god though)

 

Originally posted by lukster
I'll argue that God is infinite and therefore not divisible into separate creators.

  there's whats illogical

[lukster]

Originally posted by Booz
sure it does
 
 

 simple really, absolute lack of motion  (not a particularly comfortable place to hide a god though)

 

  there's whats illogical

You described space without time. You didn't describe intelliegnce without time which is what I meant by "existence".

BTW, I admitted to having faith in my first post in this thread.

[lukster]

After giving a bit more thought to your infinite creator proposition DeSelys I find it interesting. What do you mean exactly when you say that if there is a creator of time and space then it follows that there must be a creator of that creator ad infinitum?  Wouldn't that imply that time and space weren't actually created by one God but that gods are created within time and space?

[Booz]

Originally posted by lukster
You described space without time. You didn't describe intelliegnce without time which is what I meant by "existence".

  I'll need a lukster dictionary, I know those are real words...what is intelligence to you?
 
  All examples of intelligence mankind has found involve chemical reations in the brain, synapses firing etc, we see it over and over again in all kinds of animals.We know additions of other chemicals can hamper/alter those reactions.... of course without time (motion) that can't happen.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Booz
I'll need a lukster dictionary, I know those are real words...what is intelligence to you?
 
  All examples of intelligence mankind has found involve chemical reations in the brain, synapses firing etc, we see it over and over again in all kinds of animals.We know additions of other chemicals can hamper/alter those reactions.... of course without time (motion) that can't happen.

Trying to percieve of anything that exists not within our concept of space/time is, like I mentioned, difficult. The idea of motion and thus distance (or lack thereof) are relative only to our idea of space/time. Therein lies the difficulty.

By using the word intelligence I am admittedly attributing to God human traits which are undoubtedly incomplete if appropriate at all. Here's what I mean by it though. God is a being that purposely created all that is. That he may have "spoke" the Universe into existence, with it's many aspects we have yet to imagine, could have been very much like the "big bang theory" proposed by some scientists or which simply winked into existence by others. Or, our universe could be one of those one dimensional "strings", whose beginning (from our perspective) was simply the middle of an oscillation, relative to all of creation that is.

However, my faith comes in because I believe that God, difficult as it is to imagine, cares about people, individually. I have had experiences you might say I imagined simply because of my need. You might be right, I can't prove otherwise. I admit to having faith, I believe.