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Author Topic: Troops at the border says W  (Read 850 times)

Offline Toad

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Troops at the border says W
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2006, 09:29:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Surely, you are not holding this single tragedy up as a reason to not deploy NG units for logistical, reconnisance and tactical support of the Border Patrol?


I'm not holding anything up at all.

Just sayin'.

When the ROE get written, you can bet your sweet bippy Hernandez will be mentioned and will result in non-enforcement by military.

It'll be observe and report...bet on it.
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Offline Hangtime

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Troops at the border says W
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2006, 09:36:23 PM »
Ahh. My mistake. thanks Toad.

re: observe & report... That's how i'd rather have it. the BP is the agency tasked for the job.. they are under funded and under staffed. according to the sellout in the oval office, the BP will be getting the funding and additional staffing; but it takes 'time'.. (WTF has he been doing since 9/11? tiddlywinks?)

... into the breach; send the NG to man the aircraft; deploy the RPV's, drive the trucks, staff the holding and deportation centers. there shouldn't be ONE freaking BP agent with his wide fat hams in an office chair. Get 'em on the job, detaining and patrolling. I want THEIR boots on the ground.. not the NG's.
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Offline Brenjen

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Troops at the border says W
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2006, 09:47:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I'm not holding anything up at all.

Just sayin'.

When the ROE get written, you can bet your sweet bippy Hernandez will be mentioned and will result in non-enforcement by military.

It'll be observe and report...bet on it.


 You guys must not watch the news much, they have been reporting since this all came out that the guard would be used in a strictly supporting role & would have no "law enforcement" duties. They are simply going to run surveillance, comms, drive, basic gopher duties to free up the BP agents they have doing those tasks now.
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Offline Maverick

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Troops at the border says W
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2006, 04:11:35 PM »
If the Guard is going to be used to help secure the border they cannot participate in direct law enforcement activities, IE arrests. Posse Commitatus prohibits that activity. Since they will be working the US border, Bush cannot require the use of the Guard UNLESS he federalizes them. That means the individual states will not be footing the bill the Federal Government will. Anytime the President orders a Guard unit activation they switch from the state chain of command and into the Ferderal chain.
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Offline straffo

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Troops at the border says W
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2006, 04:23:44 PM »
Where will the troop look at , inside or outside ?
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2006, 04:26:08 PM »
i don't think securing the border falls under civil law, it's more of a federal jurisdiction, i'm not sure capturing foreign invaders is prevented by Posse Comitatus.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2006, 06:14:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Where will the troop look at , inside or outside ?


Correct answer is, yes. Now what does that have to do with the situation?

John9000, define what you mean by "invaders". Second point, Posse Commitatus prohibits law enforcement of civilians by military personell. Immigration violations are a law infraction and hardly constitute a military action like "invasion".
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Offline Brenjen

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Troops at the border says W
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2006, 06:30:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Correct answer is, yes. Now what does that have to do with the situation?

John9000, define what you mean by "invaders". Second point, Posse Commitatus prohibits law enforcement of civilians by military personell. Immigration violations are a law infraction and hardly constitute a military action like "invasion".



Second point, Posse Commitatus prohibits law enforcement of U.S. civilians by military personell. Immigration violations are a federal law infraction and constitute an "invasion" when done in the numbers we are seeing & during a time of war.

 That would be a more accurate read. And besides; Maverick laid out the Posse Commitatus issue quite well. The only part he didn't mention was the possibility of the federal govt. skirting posse commitatus & allowing the natl. guardsmen to legally perform law enforcement duties.

 If President Bush, asks the state governers to deploy the Guard, they retain their status as a "state militia". He gets to toot his horn & take responsibility for the deployment & skirt posse commitatus, thus allowing them to take an active police roll. There is no indication they plan to do this,but they could. And if the governers refused, the President can threaten to hold up federal money the states desperately need.

 There are other loopholes but that is the easiest one to explain.
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2006, 08:06:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Brenjen
Second point, Posse Commitatus prohibits law enforcement of U.S. civilians by military personell. Immigration violations are a federal law infraction and constitute an "invasion" when done in the numbers we are seeing & during a time of war.

 That would be a more accurate read. And besides; Maverick laid out the Posse Commitatus issue quite well. The only part he didn't mention was the possibility of the federal govt. skirting posse commitatus & allowing the natl. guardsmen to legally perform law enforcement duties.

 If President Bush, asks the state governers to deploy the Guard, they retain their status as a "state militia". He gets to toot his horn & take responsibility for the deployment & skirt posse commitatus, thus allowing them to take an active police roll. There is no indication they plan to do this,but they could. And if the governers refused, the President can threaten to hold up federal money the states desperately need.

 There are other loopholes but that is the easiest one to explain.


From what I've read and seen on the news is that the bill for the guard will be paid for by the federal govt but the guard will still be under a state run command.  

This probably allows for the guard to perform policing duties in the future but from what I've read that's not what they are there to do.  The administration is smart IMHO and are probably leaving this option open in case it's needed.

NOW......

If military like Hmvees with mounted .50 cals start crossing the border escorting SUV that are surrounded by armed men, it is no longer a law enforcement issue......I just hope the ROE on the ground allows for this distiction.
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