Euros only pls - integration or multiculturalism ??

[CyranoAH]

Lazs, most countries in Europe have a common past and more things in common than Europe as a whole with the countries from the magreb, india, pakistan, or any islamic country.

Daniel

[Sparks]

Within the EU yes there are multiple cultures but still defined within the nation boundaries - that is not the same. What we are talking about here is integration of people on an individual level into communities.  If I as an Englishman moved to Germany I would expect to have to adjust my lifestyle to the German culture, not set up a mini England and gather like minded English round me to form our own English state in bavaria. The French are fiercely protective of their national culture - currently at the expense of other EU nations (but that's another story).

As far as laws go in the EU - I never said I liked or agreed with the European Parliament or the idea of a Federal Europe and I think it is bad for Europe.  A better bet would be a free trade area. Norway and Iceland have the right idea.

[StSanta]

It's not a matter of race, ethnicity or religion to me. I'm a pragmatist and whatever works is good.

When I am a guest, I follow the house rules. When I am living on someone elses charity, same thing, except I'll feel an obligation to assist in any way I can.

When I have guests, I make sure they follow mine. I do not allow them to redecorate my living room.  Beer, food and snacks are free, but if they're consistently mooching, they're not getting a re-invite. If they take a dump and don't clean their mess, I'll remind them. If they forget again - out the door no re-invite til they understand I am serious about the rules.

Whine about the mess and I tell you to clean it up if it bothers you. Whine again without doing anything and I show you the door.

The only thing I *need* to tolerate in my own place is my neighbors. My place, my rules. If you think they stink - fine by me, you don't have to come.

If I am elected prime minister, I'll push for the same rules for the country I was born in. I don't give a damn about race, culture whathaveyou. Be courteous, do your best to pull your weight and I'll do my best to be the perfect host, helping where I can. I won't suffer lazy complaining parasites though - no matter who they are.

Of course, bleeding-hearts will call this "hidden racism". And it is, in the sense that it includes all races, targetted on the level of the individual.

[lazs2]

so how is that different from what we want here in the states?   We want to have free trade with mexico but we want to speak our own language and to have all permanent residents be legal and to be loyal to the United States..  we want them to go through the citizenship routine and speak the language or not be allowed to live here.

Once a citizen they are free to practice the customs of their former country (along with those of the new) and add to our culture.   You can't disallow a mexican resturant with mexican decorations on the walls for instance.... and wouldn't want to..

You shouldn't allow them to hire illegal aliens tho or to be citizens who can't speak their countries language.

We have parades for the Irish and the Italian and Mexican and whatever... no big deal.... milky white Americans drinking mexican beer and wearing a sombrero for a day that is a mexican national holliday is a good thing.  

a ghetto where everyone only speaks spanish and no one knows how to read the language of the country they are in or abides by that countries laws is a bad thing.

It's pretty black and white and easy to figure if you are realistic about it.

laz

[lazs2]

I guess a good example would be the guy who immigrated from Scotland and flies and American flag at his home... His business is a scottish meat pie resteraunt with all the paraphanalia.

He does not drive on the left side of the road when he leaves tho.  

lazs

[Sparks]

If you re-read my starting post Lazs I say that it is generally recognized that the US is the model for sucessful legal immigration - so no it isn't any different but that was my point of asking the question to my  fellow Euro's "why then do some of our lawmakers believe multi-culturalism is the better way?" - to the point of labelling those who believe in integration racists.

This isn't a US - Euro debate - the argument question would have been the same if the sucessful model was Wonkaland..

Interesting points you raise though about parades etc. I agree the mexican who sets up a national restaurant  with national theme within the broader collection of other restaurants is a good thing.  A nationally based parade to celebrate a national holiday of the origin country ? Where do you draw the line ? Why not the building of a monument to celebrate it ? Asking for a national public holiday for those of Mexican descent ?
How about St Patrick's day parades ? Harmless ? But perhaps the commercialism that has grown aorund them masks the small non-integrated Irish communities (which for other nationals would be labelled ghettos) in various cities.  Communities closed to outside eyes who have been able to fund foreign terrorist organisations without law enforcement action because those same communities took control of the agencies who would stop them - maybe not so harmless and maybe these parades fire up dormant nationalism which is the fuel of conflict.  If the Israeli community had a parade to celebrate the victory of the 7-Day war do you think that would promote good relations with the Arabic community or fuel divisions? In Europe we already see nationally based events fuleing inter-community violence - a clip from my local paper race violence

I am not raising the point as sticking the finger up to the US as saying it's failed but to highlight that even in the success story the line between integration and multi-culturalism can be broken. Once broken it's hard to repair.

In my home town an Indian festival that was once a small local affair now has public park space, policing, carparking arrangements provided by the city council.  If I want to fly the English flag outside my house on St George's day I'm a racist.

I think people who are thinking of emmigrating look on it too lightly - it is a big decision - you need to make your detination country home and consider it yours, not just a temporary place to stop while you earn some good money.

[cpxxx]

Sparks, I think you will find there are few non integrated Irish ghettos in the US, if any. That time is long gone. Any more than there are Irish ghettos in the UK.  Paddy's day is way past any triumphalist celebration of Irishness and in fact if anything has been Americanised and internationalised. In fact it's and excellent example of positive multiculturalism as anyone can celebrate the day.
Like the British the Irish long since integrated into the US culture. Your point is good though even though the example is bad.

You mention the Indians too but in fact they and the Chinese seem in general to have found the right balance. Both have kept their culture but often are fully integrated into the country they live in. In a way it's inevitable, they're not white and are alway subject to some racism so their original identity is always preserved.  The children of European immigrants simply merge with the rest.

I always believe immigrants should integrate into the country they live in. By all means celebrate their culture but  you have to try and adapt to the ways of the country you live in. It applys both ways. I know of many Irish and British who move to Spain to live for example and never bother to learn much more than Pidgin Spanish. It cuts both ways.

Multiculturalism has been given a bad name because of some of the absurdities often highlighted but there is nothing wrong with it as long as  it's not imposed on the host country.  

I think in truth though, is the this issue is as much to do with the rise of Islam and Islamism. That is where the real clash is.  An intolerant religion clashing with a tolerant society. That is the real problem for Europe in general.

By the way the title of this thread 'Euros only'. Isn't that a bit intolerant? I mean this is an American forum. Where is the integration?

[lazs2]

sparks... I thought I was sticking to the subject and not making it a U.S. vs euro arguement.

I simply have more experiance with the way we do it.... good and bad.

The answer to some of your questions is.... parade?  good.   National recognized holliday or statue... bad.  It is not difficult to draw the line..

You want a statue?  How bout a statue or painting or mural of immigration?  we have those... No problem....  turn it into a statue of some national hero of another country and it becomes a bad thing.

A memorial to the brave souls who fought in WWII should not be about the enemy even tho some people (immigrants) may be of that ancestry.... they need to feel proud that as Americans (in this example) we kicked the crap out of their relatives.  

I think that once the immigrant feels he is a citizen and loyal to the country he chose... that is the real success... if he still feels that his loyalty should be divided.... he needs to leave and go figure it out some more.

nothing wrong with still likeing the food of your ancestors...  good for everyone..... divided loyalty?   well that is another thing.

simple stuff in my opinion.

An American who is of mexican decent should be outraged when mexican illegals (in this case as example) put down his country of the U.S.   If they aren't then they are not welcome.  



lazs

[lukster]

I have European ancestors, can I post? I think this guy makes some interesting points related to the topic.

http://rantwraith.blogspot.com/2005/11/coming-of-eurabian-civil-war.html