National Security Agency vs The Bill of Rights

[Hap]

The ultimate citizen action is to vote.  I'll keep this issue in mind when I walk into the polling center.

[BluKitty]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
So you are saying that your right to privacy overides security even if it isn't being violated?

and you said re. phone records

That is the only way they can be used against me in court.

Privacy is more than about courts.  Have you never heard of blackmail, of extortion ... or people like Cohn or McCarthy?

That is why privacy matters..... not courts.

But then agin the current excutive branch is systematicly attacking the rights of the judical system as well as the rights of the house, senate and common US citizen.

Lots of people bring up 1984..... but Huxley had a good book too.... and it was about safety and by association fear.  Brave New World.


Well one thing about terrorists..... they want to make you afraid.....to create terror....

Are you afraid?

[BluKitty]

One thing I'll add about things and changeing them.  

Propaganda works..... Mussolini should have taught us that.

Look at the state of our media.... Look at the corprate control.

Hillary Clinton bowed to Rupert Murdoch.  Both Dem's and Rep's are bad.

One thing that might help is more parties.  Nader, for this reason, would be better than McCain or Clinton or Condi or many others that might try in '08.

Progessives, Greens, or Libertarian's would all be better choices..... why because they aren't part of 'Clear Channels' or Rupert Murdoch's world.


The media is to blame for alot of our issues.  We here with computers are elite simply by haveing one and an Internet connection.  Most people in the US rely on these large corprate media giants for their 'news'.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0503-36.htm

The #1 broadcast news in the country, last I heard, is a defence contractor.

[DoctorYO]

here is some good reading for those in the know...

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70944-0.html?tw=wn_index_2

and for your own copy of historical documents

http://blog.wired.com/27BStroke6/att_klein_wired.pdf  

Funny thing about fiber optics is that if you can read the stream undetected; whats stopping you writing to the stream in question..

Thats where things get interesting.  Thats where any congressional questioning should be directed...


Enjoy...



DoctorYo

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Mighty1
More like it was invented by people who paid attention to other sources of news besides Dan Rather. You know listen to everyone and form their own opinion. Not the normal sheep that think just because they say it on the news it must be true crowd.

Neh. Not seeing the self promotion of blogsites as their being less biased than the MSM as a reasonable form of open mindedness.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by BluKitty
and you said re. phone records

 


Privacy is more than about courts.  Have you never heard of blackmail, of extortion ... or people like Cohn or McCarthy?

That is why privacy matters..... not courts.

But then agin the current excutive branch is systematicly attacking the rights of the judical system as well as the rights of the house, senate and common US citizen.

Lots of people bring up 1984..... but Huxley had a good book too.... and it was about safety and by association fear.  Brave New World.


Well one thing about terrorists..... they want to make you afraid.....to create terror....

Are you afraid?

So you have proof that your privacy was violated?

[Hangtime]

yah got proof it wasn't?

The Government is NOT protected by 'innocent until proven guilty'. WE, THE PEOPLE are.

In fact, when challenged like this; the burden of proof is upon THEM. I believe it's called 'perponderence of evidence;.. in this case, the phone records.

The government will be forced to prove that our rights have not been violated.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
So you have proof that your privacy was violated?

So how would you get the proof?

The government would ignore a subpoena, claiming national security and then send a memo to any employees having access stating that reporters phone records as well as his own are being tracked and said employee will be fired, jailed if his number shows up on the record.

Pretty easy for a government with that type of power to keep secrets, but thats OK as long as you do no wrong.

shamus

[Nash]

Originally posted by Shamus
So how would you get the proof?

The government would ignore a subpoena, claiming national security...

shamus

Exactly. It's a pretty hard thing to do.

Usually, when companies do things that affect their value, the stockholders (rightly) want to know about it. When a company conceals their transactions and activities from the public, it constitues a violatation of securities law.

Sharing the phone records of their subscribers with the government would be one of those things, naturally. So what does the government do?

On May 5th, after it was learned that the telcos were indeed sharing their records with the government, Bush issued a presidential memorandum that authorized Negroponte, Director of National Intelligence, to authorize a company to conceal it's activities from the shareholder, and by extension, the public at large. It took the the form of this.

Following this quick series of events, the telcos - AT&T,  Bell South and Verizon - came out and denied any cooperation with the government.

Do you believe them?

[Pei]

There is a simple way to resolve this: you don't need PATRIOT Acts, or even UNPATRIOTS Acts, you just need a simple ammendment to the constitution that will clear up all the changes required to fight the War on Terror:

"Henceforth it shall be assumed that the following clause is appended and applies to all all previous and all future clauses and ammendments to the Constitution of the United State of America:

Unless the Goverment, it's officers and appointed delegates, decided to suspect one or more of the parties involved of being involved in terrorism (however they choose to define it), in which case all bets are off.
"

[Yeager]

All 30 got the same "form letter" answer back.
====
they also got their names, addresses and vital stats culled and entered into a new database to monitor dissenters and whiney complainers.  They are on the short list for the big round file Im afraid......it pays to be a non grata these days.

Just disappear.........just disappear

[Toad]

nah, what they got on was the list of potential donors.

You get flooded with that crap after you write, call or e-mail. Ask me how I know.

[Hangtime]

used ta be you follwed the money.

now yah gotta follow the data.

problem is these guys got too MUCH data. It's leaking, bleeding out everywhere. Soon as I stuck my oar in on local politics, it started. Jury duty, fund drives, recycling weenies, building inspector, fire chief, every goofy acronym you can think of... they either stop by, call, email.. fer crissakes they wore out 2 fax cartridges with town hall BS.

Toad ain't kiddin.. they freaking deluge you through every orifice that'll get yer attention.

The government is hemoraging our data.. and we're gonna rubber stamp them gettin more?

[Rolex]

I lived in the Washington DC suburbs from the early to mid 1960s. One day I decided to play hookey from high school and go for a stroll to the US Capitol. I just wandered around the place reading the plaques, watching the people and soaking in the atmosphere of power.

I discovered I could go to any Congressional or Senate hearing I wanted - just read the sign outside each of the rooms, decide whether it piqued my interest, walk in and sit right down and listen.

It was great. People talking to each other with decorum and deference. Serious questions and answers mixed with dashes of humor. There was no live TV coverage back then, so I suppose that would have explained the lack of grandstanding that is so commonplace now.

"So this is how adults act?" I thought to myself.

I discovered that I could visit the office of Congressmen and Senators. Some polite receptionist or aide would always ask if they could help me, and I discovered I could ask a question and someone would come out from an office to sit down and talk to me. I didn't have an appointment and they tried to answer the dumb, high school questions I had. Questions like, "What are the chances of me getting drafted after I turn 18?"

They treated me like a soon-to-be, potential voter, I suppose, since they were always polite. If someone didn't have an answer though, they asked for my address and I got many letters, signed by the Congessman or Senator, with a reply. I even got some straight-forward answers.

I recognized Senator Everett Dirkson (the Senate Republican Minority Leader) as he was walking down a hallway, and he stopped and shook my hand, even looking into, and not past, my eyes. He was one of the most visible senators in the new media of television. He is credited with the quote, "A billion dollars here, a billion dollars there; pretty soon we're talking about real money."

There is no record of him ever saying that, but the story goes that a newspaper reporter got the quote wrong, but it sounded so good that he couldn't deny it.

"Could I ask you a few questions?" I asked him.

He looked at his watch and said he was on his way to a hearing, but said, "Of course you can, if you don't mind walking with me to the hearing."

I started asking him some questions about the war in Vietnam - it looked like there was no end in sight. He waved me past the guards as we headed to the little subway. There is (or was) a small subway that only Congress can use to travel back and forth from either end of the capitol building. It looked like a Disney teacup ride. The cars were open and 4 people could sit 2 X 2 across from each other. The Disney reference certainly seems appropriate today...

He answered all my questions honestly, I think. He did love to talk, though... He didn't ask where I lived or if I would be a voter in his state. He didn't patronize me. If he didn't have a good answer, he said so.

His easily recognizable bass voice telling me, "I just don't have an answer for that right now."

When we got to the end of the line, he said he'd try to find an answer to a question I had about the budget, since he was always outspoken about government spending. He was an interesting guy, but his young assistant with the armful of papers in the tight skirt and high heels sitting next to him seemed more interesting at the time...

She took my name and address and I had more than a few 17 year-old fantasies about her writing me a letter, but it never happened. But, I did get a letter from Senator Dirkson answering my question about a week later.

Having that kind of experience during a time in our lives that we all remember so well still gives me hope that good men exist. Can we find them and convince them to run in the minefield of 'gotcha' politics and media now? I think I had a better chance of getting that fantasy letter from the assistant.

[added] I don't want you to burst a vein over this Hangtime, so please remember that I'm only the messenger... It isn't $50 billion spent. The total, long-term cost (most of which is off-budget now) is 50 billion $20 bills. So far, the total extended costs exceed $1 trillion.

[Nash]

Great anecdote, Rolex... I always love reading your stuff.

And, it's an interesting question:

"Having that kind of experience during a time in our lives that we all remember so well still gives me hope that good men exist. Can we find them and convince them to run in the minefield of 'gotcha' politics and media now?"

To me, it's kind of like a chicken and egg question. What comes first? The bad politician, or the good politician that only becomes "bad" through smearing and the polarizing effect of heightened partisan vitriol?

Because I believe that good men exist. I also happen to believe that some of them currently occupy seats in both the House and Senate.

It's not a matter of "finding" them.... because they sit before us.

And what new saviour of any political stripe would not be immediately reduced to charicature as a result of opposition smearing? Who would be immune to it?

A new and refreshing politician cannot emerge because people won't allow it.

Something else has to happen...