An honest question ...not a trawl.......

[hazed-]

Ok i have heard all these remarks about the spitfire XIV being so 'uber' that it would have to be perked but after reading an excerpt from a book im currently reading i was very surprised by what i read.

let me give you a little info first:
this is taken from the report given by the RAF/USAAF on tests between their fighters and a captured FW190a3(landed in Wales! pilot got confused) the engine on this captured FW190 was running rough due to clogged spark plugs apparently which was only solved later by using plugs from a crashed Do217 engine.I know that during the test between the typhoon and the 190 there were problems(plugs) but i cant be sure if these tests(to follow) were conducted before or after the engine problems were solved.
Anyway take a look and i think this will surprise you too:


FW190A3 versus Spitfire XIV

maximum speeds:
From 0-5,000 ft [0-1,525 m] and 15,000-20,000 ft [4,573-6,100 m] the spitfire XIV is only 20 m.p.h. [32 k.m./h.] faster; at all other heights it is up to 60 m.p.h. [97 k.m./h] faster than the fw190a3

maximum climb:
The spitfire XIV has a considerably greater rate of climb than the FW190 at all altitudes.

Dive:
After the intial part of the dive, during which the fw190 gains slightly, the spitfire XIV has a slight advantage.

Turning circle:
The spitfire XIV can easily turn inside the fw190.Though in the case of a right hand turn,this difference is not quite so pronounced.

Rate of roll:
The Fw190 is very much better.

Conclusions:
In defence, the spitfire XIV should use its remarkable maximum climb and turning circle against any enemy aircraft.In attack it can afford to 'mix it' but should be aware of the quick roll and dive.If this manouver is used by an fw190 and the spitfire follows, it will probably not be able to close the range until the fw190 has pulled out of its dive.'


this got me thinking about all those times when ive seen spitIX's close on my 190 in dives in AH and heres what these reports say on the dive comparisons between the same fw190 and the spitIX

'Dive:
the fw190 is faster than the spitfireIX in a dive, particularly during the intitial stage.This superiority is not so marked as with the spitfire VB'

As you can see this sort of difference in performance is similar to the differnces in other aircraft.Nothing truelly spectacular like everyone seems to suggest.Remember also this is a fw190a3 and we have the Dora.
what this has made me think is that the spitfireXIV that ive seen people say will match the 190 for roll because of its clipped wings and will truelly dominate etc is not true.Perhaps the spitXIV's that these people have flown in other games were not modeled correctly?

As i said this is not a trawl, its a request to those who have more information on the differences between the different aircraft.
I know that after reading this my thoughts on its(spit) introduction (ie DREAD!  ) have changed.I say give it to the RAF guys,its only fair when they have to fight Fw190d's and P51d's etc

if we were in the era of 1942/43 the match ups of the best each country could offer would be  spitXIV vs FW190D Vs P51-B. seems strange with all the varients we have that we didnt get similar era RAF planes.
Btw i dont fly them much so im not demanding for myself, on the contrary, the longer they are delayed the easier it is for me in my 190  

hope you liked the info etc and please no angry remarks lets keep it civil  

[Hajo]

hazed!  That test you quoted probably came from Alfred Lewis Book Focke Wulf, the FW190 in Combat.  It also tested the A3 against the P-51B, the P38.

The SpitIX and the FW190A Models top speed listed is exactly the same, 408 to 409 mph

The D9 with wep can climb as well as a spitix and is as much as 30 mph faster (listed)  The D9 could out accelerate the A Models level, nose down etc.

The spitix imho is not uber here, but modeled in performance as it should be.  By the way, with a top speed of 409 listed, one would think it would be a great NiK2-J killer whos' top speed listed is 369 mph.

Hajo

[hazed-]

exactly hajo, what i read and what i see in AH sometimes gives me concern.I have to rely on HTC to call it correctly and i am in no way an expert on these matters but id like to be able to question this sort of thing without some 'knowall'(like creamo or SW) telling me im an idiot  , no offence SW im actually growing quite fond of your emotion enducing posts hehehe, creamo however, is still a fool  

yes it was that book Hajo  , recommend me any others? so far you've been a great source for finding good books hehe <S>

[Effdub]

well, one look at my Fw and Spit (clipped wing) models clearly shows that 190 should still roll alot faster - Spits wing area is huge (clipped wings really only miss the wingtips).

Spits "uberness" comes from the way most MA/CA fights are/end: furballs.

I've been in CA-fights where 4 109's took about an hour to kill a lone spit, or where a single spit shot down three 109's in a minute.

When you do come across an LWer using "proper" b&z tactics he either gets you eventually, or you just die of boredom watching him extend for the nth time...

[Tac]

Hajo, what was the result Vs. P-38?  

[iculus]

Are you sure that was a Spitfire XIV?

If memory recalls it was with a Mk. V or Mk. VIII.

Although, memory probably doesn't recall...

[Replicant]

Good post Hazed.... I've always read and been told that the 190 D9 was the 'equivalent' to the Spitfire XIV so it's always worried me that if the Spit XIV was perked, how is it better than the D9?  I say worry because I don't really agree in paying for perk planes - I just wouldn't use them, I'm not the best of fighters and personally speaking I would miss not having a good performance RAF plane to use (if XIV was perked, as Tempest is).  

Regards

Nexx

PS  How would you compare the La7 to the Tempest?  I find the La7, apart from guns, much better.

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Replicant ]

[SKurj]

Hmm yeah I thought this was not a Spit XIV tested but an earlier model.  I mean why test a late model spit against one of the earliest FW's...


SLurj

[hazed-]

there are tests for spit VB, spit IX, spitXII (griffon), and spit XIV in the book.the reason they tested the fw190 against the later spits was that they didnt have a dora   . pretty obvious really  

there was a comparison with the p38f,p51a,p51b,p51b(with drop tanks),typhoon(4 cannon) too.
if i get time ill post what i can.lot of typing tho  

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[funkedup]

FYI someone has scanned the original RAF documents for the Mk. IX vs A-3 fly-off, and put them on the web.  I can get the link this evening if anybody is interested.  

The full document shows that the Spit was not using WEP power while the 190 was using "emergency and takeoff power", aka WEP.  So keep that in mind when you read the IX vs. A-3 stuff in books by Price and other authors.

[funkedup]

PS  The notion that the clipped-wing Spits would roll better than the 190s comes from the infamous NACA roll rate chart which has been posted on this board many times.

[Nashwan]

Of course AH has a 1942 Spit IX, a 1943 Fw190A and a 1944 Fw190D
There is a whole series of Spit test data at  http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html
It's been posted (and collated) by MW, who flies in a different online sim.  
I remeber a post from MW where he said he had the test report on a Spit XII that had it's wings clipped, and that it didn't improve roll rate much, but that it was a particulary fast rolling Spit anyway. He was going to post it, but hasn't yet. I'd be very interested to compare it's results with the NACA rollrate charts.
The scans of the original documents Funked refered to are at http://www.geocities.com/spades53.geo/prodocs.htm  posted by Spades from that same other sim. (sorry if I'm treading on Funked's toes, or NP if I'm saving him some work)

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Nashwan ]

[hazed-]

In the book it clearly states that during the tests with the spit5 , spit9 ,p38f ,p51a mustang and typhoon the engine on the 190a3 was not running correctly and several pilots who flew it reported that they would not like to fly a plane with such a rough sounding/ performing engine.It was only later discovered the plugs were faulty/damaged.It is not clear when these problems were 'later solved'.So maybe the fw190 in those tests was underperforming?

The document you speak of states that the WEP was used on the 190 whilst 'Experienced' flyers of the RAF didnt use theirs on the spit XIV?
seems like a rediculous notion to me and i would suspect that this is utter nonsence.I really would like to see that so called document.PLEASE POST THE LINK.
Perhaps i should go to the British Museum library and see if its there myself?  


It also states that this in the typhoon vs fw190a3, and i quote:

The manouverability of the Fw190 and the typhoon was compared during one flight at 2000ft [610m], the Typhoon  being flown by a very experienced test pilot from Hawkers, and it appeared that there was little to choose between the two aircraft in turning circles.The opinion of both pilots was that it was doubtful whether either aircraft would be able to hold its sights on sufficiently long for accurate sighting.It should be borne in mind, however, that the pilot of the Fw190 was reluctant at the time to risk stalling the aircraft in the turn at such a low height, and it is therefore possible that the turn of the fw190 could have been made tighter.The typhoon was unable to follow the fw190 from a turn in one direction into a diving turn in the opposite direction due to the fw190s superiority in the rolling plane.'

so as you can see there is also the point that the 190 was flown by pilots unused to its handling and the RAF/USAAF saw it as important enough to mention.

Id rather take these reports as tests between pilots who were trying to discover EXACTLY how they both performed due to the fact they could very well be next to die fighting one.Why on earth would they not use every means available to see the differences?

not trying to have a go funked but you must see how rediculous it would be to test an aircraft in simulated combat and not use all of its inventory of weapons and tools.Doesnt that sound strange to you?
Can we be sure that the site you mention is truelly the original test papers?
The point is also that this was indeed an earlier FW190 and there are no tests as far as i know between the fw190d and the spitXIV and the point i was really asking about was why the RAF cant have the spitXIV when the LW have the dora(same era)(not to mention ME262  ) and the USAAF have the P51B(same era)(not to mention P51d/f4uc etc).

to be honest i could understand those that love the RAF spits complaining that its unfair, and all we (myself included sometimes  ) do is moan at them for using what is essentially an older version of their favourite ride.
the spitdweeb stuff may have to END   my god what will we call em? BRAVE???  

[Nashwan]

Hazed, the documents Funked referred to test the Spit F IX against the 190. He was only partially correct when he said no WEP, the Spit f IX with Merlin 61 has max boost of 15lbs, compared to 18lbs on all other Spit IXs. AH has chosen to model one of the first 300 or so F IXs with only 15lb boost, rather than one of the later 5,000 or so with 18lb boost.
The 190 is reported as running rough, but from what I have seen since, that was simply the impression of the mechanics, who were obviously used to the much more refined British engines  
It was commonly claimed the 190 was de rated, but the tests clearly show it wasn't.

[Buzzbait]

S! all

The RAF captured a large number of German aircraft during the war.

For a complete list, see a book called:  `The Captive Luftwaffe`.

FW190D9 was captured, but not in time to use as a test aircraft.

RAF also captured models of FW190A3, (1942), Fw190A4 (1942) and FW 190A5 (1942 and 1943)

The model used in the tests against the Spit XIV was an A5 if my memory serves me correctly.  But possibly it was a later model A4.  Both versions tested were the `Jabo` model, with only the inboard 20mm, no outer wing 20mm.  These aircraft were captured during the "Mini Blitz`s", `Jabo` raids on London and the southern England ports during `42 and `43.  The aircraft were captured after their pilots became disoriented and landed at Channel British fields, thinking they were in France.

The dive and zoom characteristics of all the FW190A models was superior to all Spitfire models except the Spit XIV, and in that aircraft`s case, only in sustained dives.