Interesting info:

[StSanta]

A poor chap from Thaliand lives on half what the average American/European spends on food for his or her dog.

Even with different currencies etc it makes ya wonder.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"

[Dowding]

It's all fine and dandy though, because we can have dirt cheap labour as a result.  

And the shareholders in Nike are thrilled.

So who's complaining?

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-08-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Are you guys saying you could live off that?  Or are you just glad they based it on American consumption and not Danish or British?

How would it compare to what the average brit, dane or American spends on beer, cigarettes, coffee or tea?

AKDejaVu

[AKDejaVu]

By the way, I wonder how that poor chap from Thailand's average income compares to what we pay to play AH each month.

AKDejaVu

[Yeager]

Yes,

and the only reason that poor chap in thailand cares about how much euro/ameris spend on their dogs food is because in Thailand dogs ARE food!

LMAO

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Toad]

Dowding has point.

That poor chap from Thailand was probably much happier before Nike came to town.

He probably only took the job because he likes self-inflicted misery and pain.

Certainly his life before Nike was so good that he didn't need to take the job?

Or maybe Nike is secretly "press ganging" workers into athletic shoe slavery? That is, there is no free choice involved in taking or not taking the job?

 

[Dowding]

AKDejaVu, I think my comments are meant to be taken with a pinch of irony.

Toad, I assume you have kids? Would you like them to work 16 hours from the age of ten in some sweaty factory, so over-weight Westerners can pretend they are 'sporty'?

No? Then why should economics dictate this for another man's children?

(I'm getting a sense of dejavu with this  )

[Toad]

Dowding,

There must be something the Thai felt would accrue to his advantage or he wouldn't take the job would he?

Be nice if we could wave a wand and all countries became instant "first world countries" wouldn't it?

It's never happened before. The course of economic development for poor nations throughout history hasn't really changed much. There is almost ALWAYS an exploitative phase.

Have you found a way to bypass that unhappy circumstance that would actually work in a "real world" scenario? If you have, you're probably inline for a Nobel in Economics.

Toad, I assume you have kids? Would you like them to work 16 hours from the age of ten in some sweaty factory, so over-weight Westerners can pretend they are 'sporty'?

Yes, I have two boys. One in college on a sports scholarship, the other in High School.
The one playing American football is MOST CERTAINLY paying for his education...in many, many ways.

Had the choice been between either starving to death or working for Nike and barely surviving, I suppose my entire family would be making athletic shoes.

Would I like it? No. Would I rather starve? No.

You are right; this is plowed ground.

When you discover the way to leap from a pre-industrial subsistence society to a modern first world economy in just three short weeks we'll discuss it again. I'll buy the Champagne at your after-Nobel party too!

 

 

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Boroda]

Funny  

My official monthly salary that I get working as an IT support engineer in Academy of Science is 860 rubles. $1=28 rubles here.

I get 5600 rubles monthly for supporting different scientific organisations in Moscow.

I earn more assemblying PCs, repairing them and making LANs all over Moscow. Our clients are various Moscow commertial firms and our friends, no advertising but a word of mouth.

Average pension for age here in Moscow is less then 1500 rubles.

My Father gets about 1500 rubles as a professor (!!!) in his college. A a military pensioneer (retired colonel, 44 years in the Army, 1943-1987) he gets about 3000 rubles.

My Grandma, she died in October   got 1100 rubles as an officer widiow.

For 6 months I worked with a 20 years old  guy who earned 4000 roubles monthly doing cabling works in apartment houses.

I am 27 and have incomplete college, specialised in "conventional warhead design". IMO I am doing pretty well, I spend no more then 100 roubles daily on food and (mostly) on beer and tobacco. I don't have a car, but I own a small 3-roomed apartment 5 minutes from a subway station.

Food prices in Moscow: 5.5 roubles for bread (black or white), 90 rubles for a kilogramm of meat, 7 rubles for a kilogramm of potatos, 15 rubles for a liter of milk, 55 rubles for a 0.5 liter of fine vodka, 13 rubles for a good beer. I pay about 350 rubles monthly for an apartment (heating, garbage collection, phone, water, electricity, gas).

Hardcover book price is around 50 rubles.

95 octane petrol is around 9 rubles per liter.

Anyone else living not in US wants to share (or should I say "declare"?) his living conditions?

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With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[miko2d]

 Toad,

 If international political activism was driven by rationalal rather then wishfull thinking, your comments would be appropriate in this topic.

 As it is, stop confusing people with your heartless economics! If Nike did not add jobs to Thailand economy, many more children would die of hunger and deseases, but we would not know about it so it would as good as not happen!

miko

[Boroda]

Forgot 1000 rubles monthly that I spend for a cellular phone. $0.30 per minute here for a GSM sevice. -ivan-, my companion, pays $160 monthly for an NMT unlim including long distance calls.

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Ripsnort]

Borado, sure, but do you want to know what my living conditions were when I was young or today?

When I was 18:

Started my adult working life with $100 and a suitcase full of clothes 1700 miles from the nearest relative, renting a room for $50 a month, sleeping on the floor near a hot plate for warmth, a pile of broken bricks used for tossing at the drunken and drugged bums trying to climb in the window from the nearby alley while flicking cockroaches out from the tattered blanket, eating snickers  candy bars for lunch and dinner because I could not afford real food until I found a job...and forget about tobacco or booze, those were luxeries out of reach for me..

I eventually landed a job that paid well, but was laid off and ended up making small change as a bartendar that payed for my own education by working not only late evenings but another bartending job just so I could                    afford to attend morning classes with little or no sleep.

You see, I lived the American dream, I started out in the gutter, with nothing, feeling sorry for myself and basically hating anyone with any substantial amount of money since "I" didn't have any...you know what? I live in a great country, where opportunity is there for those that work hard and seek it.  I stopped feeling sorry for myself and pursued happiness...worked for it.  I wish this for anyone, however, I can understand that the country you live in *could* prevent you from doing so...you still control your own destiny...no one can take your destiny away from you except yourself.

Today? Living a comfortable life that came at a price...hard work.  I have a philosophy, actually a couple...one is--whenever a 'door' opens, step inside and see whats in the door..never be closed-minded about any oppportunity..even if its flipping hamburgers.  The second philosophy is be willing to learn or re-train in as many things in life as you can...in my life, I've discovered knowing alittle about everything is more valuable than knowing alot about ONE thing.  Flexibility.

And my grandfather wrote a poem about being proud of yourself...I won't post the whole poem, but the bottom line is this:

If you end up being a shrub in the middle of the field, be the BEST little shrub on the whole field!

In other words, it doesn't matter how much you earn, or what you do, or what you own...what matters is YOU..you're self-esteem, your happiness.

I was happy making $2.00 an hour, and lived accordingly (which, incidently, I qualified for 'Food Stamps' but never accepted them)...and I am just as happy earning what I earn today.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-08-2001).]

[blur]

Profits vs. Human Dignity

I think this will be a major issue of the 21st century.

Interesting article on Nike: http://www.summersault.com/~agj/clr/alerts/sarah_cox.html

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. …corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
                     - Abraham Lincoln

[Toad]

Abe wrote that?

...and the Republic is still here?

 

[Dowding]

Miko2d, Toad. Consider child prostitution in Thailand.

Sure they make money. Sure they can support their parents and earn more than working in a field. Clearly, that's all that matters.

Is 'economics' a valid justification here? And if not, why not?