Interesting info:

[Toad]

Not so fast, Dowding.

Don't "liberal dodge" again.

1. Do you know of ANY way that would work in the "real world" to bring a 3rd world country to 1st world status in a short period of time WITHOUT exploitation?

2. Can you show that the Thai Nike workers are far worse off now than they were before Nike arrived? In other words, do NO benefits accrue by working for Nike? They were living better before Nike came?

3. Lastly, take a moment and discourse on what would happen to the Thai economy if relatively unskilled athletic shoe assembly workers were suddenly give raises to the point that their wages equaled a US Nike assembly worker (if there even is one). With "unskilled" labor making US rates, what would Thai doctors and other professionals do?  What would be the overall effect on the economy?

Answer that and we'll get into child prostitution...which is an entirely different area of the illegal economy that carries a negative emotional charge that is not necessarily germane to the Economics arguement at hand..which is what I suspect you intended.

 

[Eagler]

Can't solve the world's problems. If it bothers you, don't buy the shoes or whatever the cheap labor is producing. Truth is American labor has out priced itself in the world market. You can thank labor unions in part for that. That's why more and more companies are setting up shop overseas. That's why everything says "Made in China" when you flip it over. The downside is the trade deficit. China or wherever doesn't purchase American made goods in equal quantities. Can't compare making shoes to child prostitution, come on Dowding....

Eagler

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
Miko2d, Toad. Consider child prostitution in Thailand...

 You consider it, Dowding. If they would rather prostitute then starve how can any legal way to make money be bad for them?

 They starve because they have no money. The thai perverts do not give them money unless sex is involved. Upstanding british citizens like you would not give them money no matter what. Sleasy american corporations are afraid to open a factory there bacause paying them american rates would be unprofitale (and thus against the law protecting the shareholders) and paying Thailand rates would be a bad publicity. So just let them starve quietly.

 How come anyone who is upset that his/her sneakers are too cheap, would not just donate the difference to the poor Thai kids?

miko

[AKDejaVu]

 

Miko2d, Toad. Consider child prostitution in Thailand.
Sure they make money. Sure they can support their parents and earn more than working in a field. Clearly, that's all that matters.

Is 'economics' a valid justification here? And if not, why not?

False assumption: Child prostitution only exists because money is available to pay for them.  Of course, they wouldn't be doing it for food if money was unavailable.

Another great leap:  Child prostitution is the result of people having jobs thus being able to afford the prostitutes.  Get rid of the jobs and there will be no more child prostitution.

I can't believe this was even brought up as an issue in regards to Nike "sweat shops".  You have to do MUCH better than that Dowding.  Right now you're just looking desperate.

AKDejaVu

[AKDejaVu]

Wow.. just occured to me you may have been comparing child prostitution to working for Nike in Thailand.

Wow.

AKDejaVu

[-towd_]

yea ones screwing and the others getting screwed .not much differnence the prostitute probly works half the hours for double the wages lol.

defend you imperialism the poor man will pay your bills like always.

[Dowding]

Sorry for the short answer, but I have to be up at 6.00 am tommorrow to get to work.

Firstly, consider the Nike 'sweat shops'.

Toad effectively summarises Nike's stance on child labour and the improvement of the host nation's economy. For instance, Nike assert that they have increased per capita income ten-fold since 1970 in Indonesia. There is no evidence to support this, and considering that Nike only began investing in Indonesia in 1988, their back-slapping is a little hard to swallow. Coupled with this, is the fact that the strengthening of the Indonesian economy began well before 1988.

The point concerning the move from third world to first world status is an interesting one. The jobs created in the factories are not guaranteed and are especially vulnerable considering the increase in wages which is an integral part of any economic growth. Once this takes place, Nike will move on to a less developed country; it is already investigating other locations outside Indonesia.

Finally, several Western companies are doing far more for their host communities than Nike. For instance Levi Strauss pay for the education of their workers up to the age of 14, before taking them on as employees. Surely that is a better way to proceed.

From an Anustralian NGO:

 

The low wages which force young women to work very long hours on inadequate diets while living in inadequate and unsanitary housing, takes its toll on health - not only of the young women themselves but of their children, as the majority are of child bearing age. For all their benefits, these jobs are also creating a legacy of ill health which will last long after the companies have moved on. And ill health is an economic as well as a social cost to a country like Indonesia.

There is certainly a need for investment and job creation to continue, and to grow. But the jobs created must be non-exploitative, and contribute more to the host country and particularly to its workers, in the form of decent wages and safe and healthy working conditions.

Child prostitution is an extreme example, I grant you, but that was my intention. I think you'll find that it is Western paedophiles that exploit these children, and not so much 'Thai perverts'. With this in mind, the point I was trying to make was that the child sex trade is simply an extension of the economic arguments which are used to justify child labour in any form.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-08-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

 

With this in mind, the point I was trying to make was that the child sex trade is simply an extension of the economic arguments which are used to justify child labour in any form.

This works both ways Dowding.  When you do this, you trivialize the child sex trade.  To put them on the same scale is wrong.

They

[Toad]

Dowding,

You didn't directly address a single one of those three questions.

Off to work with you. I look forward to your reply tomorrow.  

Towd, I'm sure you know who said this:

"Mankind may pass directly from capitalism into Socialism, i.e. into social ownership of the means of production...Socialism is bound sooner or later to ripen into Communism, whose banner bears the motto: 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.' "

Do you recall how that idea turned out? Because it's REAL similar to your apparent philosophy.  

[Karnak]

Keep in mind that when you see annual income statistics for poor countries, that average is lowered by people who might make very little actual money, but grow and raise all of the food that they eat (not always enough, but usally).  In a wealthy, industrial nation most people, the vast majority as a matter of fact, do not grow their own food, they make money and then use the money to buy food.  When you then compare the average anual income of a poor nation to the average anual income of a nation like the USA, Japan or the UK you are comparing apples to oranges, so to speak.  Their economies are entirely different.

This is not to say that the people in Thailand are well off, its just that those types of statistics are misleading as to how bad it really is, i.e. the statistics make it look worse.  When we people from rich nations read those statistics, we tend to think "Gee, I could hardly by any food with that", and that is not the truth of the matter here.

Think when you read statistics.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 02-08-2001).]

[fd ski]

I think all of them lazy tulips in Asia and Africa should get off their tulips and get a JOB !!! Then they wouldn't have those problems !!! I'm sure somehow it is their fault that they allow themselves to be used and abused for such a luxury as food.


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[Toad]

Sorry, no jobs for anyone FD.

Dowding banned all exploitative companies from building factories in underdeveloped countries.  

Since all companies are somewhat exploitative of labor (they make a profit on the labor and do not return that profit to said employee) there were no companies qualified to build factories.

Maybe on our next Earth society try we can get it right.

 

[blur]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Abe wrote that?

...and the Republic is still here?

 

Toad, I posted that quote just for you. I knew you'd appreciate it.  

As far as our form of government still being a republic, I'm not sure. If memory serves me I seem to remember the choice of our current head of the executive branch of government being decided by five non-elected individuals in the judicial branch.

Perhaps we're more of a constitutional monarchy now.

Hail George II.

Tough call either way.  

[Toad]

ah, blur, you're just as predictable...you can't help yourself, like towd.

Always torturing yourselves at the injustice in life, eh?

There is another way.

Relax and smell the flowers. It truly is a wonderful life.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Dowding]

 

You didn't directly address a single one of those three questions.

Not a 'liberal dodge', simply a 'politician's sidestep'. It's a tune that every political party can dance to.  

BTW, I'm at work now and it sucks - at least it's friday!  

I'm building my new computer tonight - if I get it working, I'll reply to your post properly.

Have a nice day now.