Author Topic: Gay marriage - why?  (Read 3210 times)

Offline BluKitty

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2006, 10:31:09 AM »
The gay marrigie movement was largely started by AIDS.  There was some push for it before.... but much more after people REALLY started needing things like health care for thier partners etc etc etc.

Offline Gunslinger

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2006, 10:33:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
The gay marrigie movement was largely started by AIDS.  There was some push for it before.... but much more after people REALLY started needing things like health care for thier partners etc etc etc.



Many providers offer coverage to "life partners" allready.  Either you are tip toeing or dancing, I still don't see the corilation between AIDs and gay marriage.

Offline lukster

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2006, 10:36:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Lukster,

Half of affirmative action is unconstitutional in my opinion, so again you're drawing parallels to the race issue to justify discrimination.

The half of affirmative action that gives minorities specific targeted assistance to address a societal imbalance does not appear to me to be unconstitutional.  The part where that assistance comes at the direct expense of another person with race as the only discriminator IS unconstitutional however.

If a pot of money exists for the sole purpose of addressing a problem, it is not discrimination to give it out according to the plan to address that problem.

If however there is a merit-based discriminator in place and the legitimate winner of such a merit-based selection process is displaced by another person solely on the basis of race, then a law supporting such a process would be unconstitutional.


So you agree with the part of affirmative action that gives minorities targetted assistance. This sounds similar to giving a man and a woman a tax shelter.

You don't agree with affirmative action where that assistance is at the expense of another. Married people still pay taxes and are supporting society, not the other way around. In fact, without the male/female union there would be no society within a generation. You might argue that sheltering the man/woman marriage increases the taxes paid by the single man. That would be a very simplistic view that doesn't take into consideration the contribution of future tax payers by the married couple. Male/male relationships cannot produce these future tax payers.

Offline eagl

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2006, 10:47:07 AM »
lukster,

So again you're saying that my wife and I shouldn't be married because we can't produce future tax payers.

The first two times I figured you didn't really mean that, but now it's clear that you DO mean that.

When you can show that throughout history male/female couples were held in slavery and that their position in society is still affected by the fallout from that era, then I'll buy your argument that tax shelters for male/female partners is the same as affirmative action.  Until then, it's a stupid argument.

When the laws governing marriage make having natural offspring a requirement to get a marriage certificate, I'll buy your argument about having children being the reason why male/female marriages are not unconstitutional.  Until then, not only is it a stupid argument, it's also a direct assault against every childless married couple in history, because the benefits of being married are not limited to simple tax breaks.  The whole thing, from right of survivorship (which you conveniently ignore while focusing on tax benefits only for couples who can naturally conceive a child) to inheritance laws are based on a legal definition of marriage that discriminates on the basis of sex alone.

You're repeating the same old argument that just because we've discriminated in the past, it's ok to keep doing it.  And because we want to keep discriminating against certain people, we somehow need a constitutional amendment outlining the one (it'll be the last one, honest!) and only exception to the equal protections clause in the existing constitution.

So you're in favor of a constitutional amendment that legalizes sexual discrimination.  What will be your stance when someone else proposes a constitutional amendment discriminating against you?
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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2006, 10:54:49 AM »
Talking about redefining marriage, if you allow gay marriage, meaning u change the definition of marriage, then you also need to leagalize polygamy.

man an a woman

then we leagalize

man and man
woman and woman

but also

man and woman and woman ...
woman and man and man ...

and of course, since same sex is allowed

man and man and man ...
woman and woman and woman ...

:huh
Dat jugs bro.

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Offline lukster

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2006, 10:55:08 AM »
You're putting a lot of words in my mouth eagl. You and your wife are an anomaly. Most married couples can and do have kids. Would I deprive you of the benefits of marriage because of a malfunction? Of course not. I wouldn't deprive you of the benefits even if it were your choice to never have kids. Again, we're talking an anomaly. Women have a long tradition of staying home whether they have kids or not. That this has radically changed over the last 50 years may result in changes to the tax shelter enjoyed by married couples eventually.

Offline eagl

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2006, 11:03:21 AM »
Now you're saying discrimination based on tradition is ok?

You're really making it tough to write this constitutional amendment...  Are they going to have to write in justification on the basis of a traditional family where the man works and the woman stays at home?

You're also fixating on the tax shelter aspects, and totally ignoring the other issues currently requiring "marriage", including right of survivorship, inheritance, and child custody.

You might also want to do a little more research before you go calling childless couples an anomaly...  The rate is a lot higher than you think and not everyone who has to adopt advertises that fact.  I don't hold your lack of knowledge on this subject against you, but your argument does demonstrate that you are not in possession of a number of facts.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Gunslinger

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2006, 11:12:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Talking about redefining marriage, if you allow gay marriage, meaning u change the definition of marriage, then you also need to leagalize polygamy.

man an a woman

then we leagalize

man and man
woman and woman

but also

man and woman and woman ...
woman and man and man ...

and of course, since same sex is allowed

man and man and man ...
woman and woman and woman ...

:huh


Hey why stop there, WHy not man and animals, woman and donkeys.  It'll be a hoot.

Offline eagl

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2006, 11:20:27 AM »
Or just re-define marriage as being a legally binding contract between two *people*, and be done with it.  Unlike the constitutional guarantee against sexual discrimination, there is no constitutional guarantee for polygamy, so that's a baseless scare-tactic argument as well.  

We have a current definition of marriage that is in question.  Some states define it as a legally binding union or contract between two people, and some as the same contract but only between a man and a woman.  One of those two definitions violates the constitution, and one does not.

The President knows this, and rather than support changing the laws to make them fit the existing constitution, he is proposing changing the constitution to permit laws that he knows darn well are unconstitutional.  That's the whole reason for the proposed amendment, and that's the whole reason why that amendment can't be allowed to win.  It would set the precedent that the constitution can be amended to allow discrimination in direct contradiction to the existing rights and protections guaranteed by the constitution, based on nothing but a gut feeling that some people don't deserve a legal status because they're "not like us".

Again, where have we heard these arguments before?  Oh yea, that's right.

Guns, donkeys don't vote and there isn't a single donkey in the constitution, so ptooie on their opinion. :aok
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline lukster

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2006, 11:32:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Now you're saying discrimination based on tradition is ok?

You're really making it tough to write this constitutional amendment...  Are they going to have to write in justification on the basis of a traditional family where the man works and the woman stays at home?

You're also fixating on the tax shelter aspects, and totally ignoring the other issues currently requiring "marriage", including right of survivorship, inheritance, and child custody.

You might also want to do a little more research before you go calling childless couples an anomaly...  The rate is a lot higher than you think and not everyone who has to adopt advertises that fact.  I don't hold your lack of knowledge on this subject against you, but your argument does demonstrate that you are not in possession of a number of facts.


Isn't affirmative action based on there being a a tradition of racial discrimination? Is that OK?

If I'm in error as to what constitutes an anomaly please provide some facts.

Like I said, discrimination isn't arbitrarily wrong. It all depends on the reasons.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 11:34:53 AM by lukster »

Offline lukster

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2006, 11:45:25 AM »
The way I see it isn't complicated.

You give a married man and a woman a tax break becuase that is the basic family unit neeed for the survival of the species. Much effort and expense goes into raising kids, far more than what the tax break provides. If we are moving to women being providers equal to men then we might indeed modify this tax break to shelter only those with dependents. Removing it for everyone if it's not needed is the thing to do but giving the marriage tax break to two men is just plain stupid.

I have no problem with giving gay couples other rights that are no burden to society.

Offline BluKitty

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2006, 12:10:25 PM »
Quote
Many providers offer coverage to "life partners" allready. Either you are tip toeing or dancing, I still don't see the corilation between AIDs and gay marriage.


4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 12:15:08 PM by MP4 »

Offline lukster

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2006, 12:15:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BluKitty
And come on .. define the sexes for me..... Oh ya.... YOU CAN'T DO IT.
 


Huh?

Where'd you go to skewl dude? Or is it dudette? Drop yer drawers and I'll define yer sex for ya.

storch

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2006, 12:18:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Huh?

Where'd you go to skewl dude? Or is it dudette? Drop yer drawers and I'll define yer sex for ya.
even if it accepts your offer, that may prove somewhat more difficult than you may imagine.

Offline BluKitty

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Gay marriage - why?
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2006, 12:31:48 PM »
Quote
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.


Ya because others are sooooooo 'respectful' ... see above ----^


How else do you propose I educate ignorance?  Am I not allowed to call someone ignorant or do you have another word you would prefer I use?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 12:40:46 PM by BluKitty »