Author Topic: UN wants more respect from US  (Read 2086 times)

Offline Momus--

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UN wants more respect from US
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2006, 10:01:01 AM »
I'm sorry if you can't tell the difference between 20/20 hindsight and someone's original objections being proven right after the event Rooster.

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Care to enumerate the things that they were wrong about?


Some that spring to mind would be:

The regional instability hasn't been as bad as some people predicted, particularly in relation to Jordan, Kuwait and the UAE.

The humanitarian crisis that was suggested might occur didn't transpire.

The posibility of Turkey being drawn into the conflict to preclude Kurdish independence didn't come to pass.

There's probably more, fell free to chime in..

Offline Mighty1

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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2006, 10:10:41 AM »
They were right about the WMD.

Only because some of them were the ones who helped move them.

They were right about an invasion actually making global terrorism issues worse not better.

Wrong! The invasion only brought global terrorism out in the open. Crap has been happening for years without a lot of press.

They were right about the region being destablised, as evidenced by your complete inability to now deal with the consequent nuclear proliferation issue in Iran.

Wrong again! The UN are the ones who have not been able to deal with Iran. We have tried to let the fabled UN show how worthless they are once again.


They were right about increased radicalisation of the local population.

Really? From what I've read it's been outsiders like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who have been causing a lot of the problems.

They were right about the complete absence of an Al-Qaeda-Ba'ath party linkage.

Link?

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031201-123723-4738r.htm

They were right about Iraq not presenting the threat to the US that Bush, Cheney et al claimed.

This I can't argue with.

They were right when they warned that removing a secular and unifying regime risked opening the door to an Iraqi government dominated by Islamicists at precisely the time that you are supposed to be engaged in a "war" against radical islamic terrorism

Ok are you saying they were right because they warned it COULD happen or are you trying to say it actually happened?

Because I don't see how you can say the Iraqi government is dominated by anyone.

Did I miss anything?

Looks like about everything.
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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2006, 11:00:20 AM »
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Originally posted by Mighty1

Only because some of them were the ones who helped move them.


Brilliant. which UN members was it that actually moved these non-existent stockpiles? Source please (again)

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Wrong! The invasion only brought global terrorism out in the open. Crap has been happening for years without a lot of press.


Says who, you? sorry, I find the US state department a slightly more convincing source, not much more but hey, they do their best..

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Overall, the number of what the U.S. government considers "significant" attacks grew to about 655 last year, up from the record of around 175 in 2003....Terrorist incidents in Iraq also dramatically increased, from 22 attacks to 198...


Source

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Wrong again! The UN are the ones who have not been able to deal with Iran. We have tried to let the fabled UN show how worthless they are once again.


The point that you seem to have missed is twofold; that Iran's brinksmanship has arguably been caused by the US hamfisted treatment of the Iraqi question, and that US options for dealing with Iran are hampered by Iran's influence on events in Iraq and their potential for making the Iraqi situation just that much worse for US occupying forces.

That said, the UN isn't actually the one making the fuss about Iran, it's the US whining to the IAEA about Iranian proliferation whilst their domestic nuclear program is actually permitted under the terms of the NPT.

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Really? From what I've read it's been outsiders like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who have been causing a lot of the problems.


How do you think any extremist manages to operate in an insurgency? With support from the local population of course. Foreign insurgents even more so.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601623.html


Great. An openly partisan broadsheet quoting an even more openly partisan and never substantiated op-ed piece in neo-con propaganda sheet the Weekly Standard. Not very compelling is it?

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Because I don't see how you can say the Iraqi government is dominated by anyone.


Islamists hold most power in the new Iraqi government. That is a fact.

VP Tariq Al-Hashimi - Iraqi Islamic Party

VP Abdel-Mahdi - Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki - Islamic Dawa Party

Majority in Parliament held by the United Iraqi Alliance, which counts amongst it's members: Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, Islamic Dawa Party, Badr Organisation, Islamic Fayli Grouping in Iraq, Islamic Virtue Party, Hezbollah Movement in Iraq, Islamic Master of the Martyrs Movement, Islamic Action Organisation etc etc etc.

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Looks like about everything.


Keep digging..

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2006, 11:31:37 AM »
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They were right about the region being destablised, as evidenced by your complete inability to now deal with the consequent nuclear proliferation issue in Iran.



Europeans were handed this issue to deal with diplomatically. Europe failed to negotiate any type of settlement and now its the fault of the USA? :rofl
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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2006, 11:58:08 AM »
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Originally posted by Elfie
Europeans were handed this issue to deal with diplomatically. Europe failed to negotiate any type of settlement and now its the fault of the USA?


Why should europe deal with your mess? You unwittingly helped the Mullahs into power by sponsoring the Shah. It was your pointless invasion of Iraq coupled with your idiot president's inept axis of evil pronouncements that has prompted them to hope to arm themselves with the ultimate deterrent. It's your interests that are under threat by their proposed denomination of oil sales in Euros. It's your "ally" Israel whose position of strength would be undermined by a nuclear powered Iran. Why should we care if Iran threatens your hegemonic position in the Persian Gulf region? More importantly, what are you going to do about it without turning Iraq into even more of a bloodbath than it is already? Getting back on topic, if the UN is so irrelevant then why expend so much effort getting the IAEA to report Iran to the UNSC? You may as well just offer Iran the nuclear technology they want yourselves.....oh wait - you already did that just the other day...whoops!

Offline lukster

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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2006, 12:08:49 PM »
Bottom line, it's the US taxpayers that are paying the US' contributions to the UN. With as much anti-UN sentiment as there obviously is in the US, why do we keep doing it? Rush Limbaugh or any other would not be able to rally this anti-UN outspokeness if it weren't already simmering in the minds of many. The UN is justified in their fear that Americans are going to eventually get fed up and demand withdrawal. The sooner the better imo.

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2006, 12:10:24 PM »
Uh, just a nit, but Momus, you keep saying, you and your.  We are just as much pawns here as anyone.  We have no say in what our politicians say or do, once they get into office.  Just clarifying that a bit.

The only ones who can provoke a change in what our politicians say or do, is the media, and the very rich.

So please do not lump us into that mess.

And if you chose to blame us as we elected the policians currently in office, you would be mssing one point.  No matter who we elect, they will do whatever fits thier agenda.  So much for checks and balances.

And before you (the collective version) tell me we have recourse.  Know this.  I have done my part in trying to get things changed.  Have you (general question aimed at no one in particular)?
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Offline Elfie

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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2006, 12:12:05 PM »
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Why should europe deal with your mess? You unwittingly helped the Mullahs into power by sponsoring the Shah.


Get your facts straight. While the US was involved in putting the Shah into power it was the Brits that came to us for help in doing so. The Brits had their hand in it as well.

We helped EUROPEANS when they asked for help in Iran and now it's ALL our fault again. :rofl

Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

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More importantly, what are you going to do about it without turning Iraq into even more of a bloodbath than it is already?


I'm not gonna do a thing about it. Why? Because I am just Joe Blow that has NO say in what happens.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:14:09 PM by Elfie »
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Offline Goomba

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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2006, 12:29:41 PM »
You're wasting your time, Mighty.

You forget the basic dogma;

We are Americans, and all things American are bad.

If we get involved, we're wrong.  If we stay out of it, we're wrong.  If we give, we're manipulative.  If we take, we're greedy.

When we speak, we're conquering Imperialists.  When we keep silent, we're isolationist and callous.

We're accused of being on a mission to destroy all local cultural heritage, and turn everyone into lily-white American robots.  The fact that our cultural influences (movies, literature, books, attitudes, whatever) can only propagate when individuals make a conscious decision to buy, read, watch or adopt is actually an insidious form of mass-hypnosis and mind control...not choice.  Repeat after me...It's all our fault...it's all our fault

We pay an inordinate portion of the UN budget, but we have no right to criticize.  We need to have more respect for an organization that will put some of the most oppressive, backward governments in charge of the Human Rights Commission.  God forbid we have the right to a dissenting opinion...while the Iranians prance about acting as though they have a history of tolerance, forbearance and justice.  Oh yeah...and all Jews should die.  Just ask 'em.

It was the US that arbitrarily carved up the Middle East after World War I, with callous disregard for thousands of years of tribal tradition and cultural influence, and set the stage for decades of renewed violence and discord, not Britain.

Anyone who lives in NYC knows how abusive and corrupt UN diplomats are...they flaunt the law with impunity, and laugh right in your face while they do it.  I speak from personal experience.

The UN is an idea with merit and value in a truly cooperative world society.  However, the institution today is truly no more than the worlds biggest, most organised party planner.  The money paid to these flocks of unproductive, ineffective 'career diplomats' is outrageous...but that's just vicious, self-serving American propaganda.

I agree with Hang....get them out of my city, out of my country and let the EU float the bill for the next few decades.  Let them enjoy the 'benefits' of having that pack of 'professionals' tearing through their neighborhoods.  When they see, with their own eyes, the dirty little secrets...like how much of the money is spent on the highest priced hookers in the world...I'm sure we'll be proved wrong in our opinions.

I'd love to see a little American-style fair play on the budget thing.  Same price for every seat in the hall.  Wanna play, you gotta pay like everybody else.  Why exactly, should we pay one nickel more than anyone else, anyway?

Oh, yeah, now I remember...we're fat, lazy, greedy Americans who deserve to be taken advantage of.  We've got it coming after all.  Any other nation on earth has the inherent, sovereign right to look out after it's own people and interests.

But not us.

Everybody else's hands are clean, Mighty...only ours are soiled.  All other nations and peoples are pure as the driven snow.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:33:19 PM by Goomba »

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2006, 12:40:55 PM »
WOOT!

Well done, Goomba. Well said.

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Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2006, 12:45:57 PM »
Yes Goomba.. everybody hates america.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2006, 12:48:48 PM »
sure gettin hard to tell the players without a program.

we just filled in where momus is on the card... where you at nils?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2006, 12:59:10 PM »
I thought you knew by now Hangtime. I am a eurotard so naturally I hate america and love France and UN.

Offline Goomba

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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2006, 01:00:47 PM »
Easy, Nilsen...making a point.

You seem a perfectly reasonable person, and I meant nothing individually personal.  Seems that even when I might disagree with a post you make, I don't have the impression that you're blind, self-aggrandizing or strident.  I can respect a reasoned, if differing, opinion.  I don't have any room for vomiting tripe.

You'll have to try being on this end of it one day, to get any real sense of how endless, mindless and repetitive the self-serving anti-American smack talk is.

Of course we're not perfect.  Knuckleheads who suggest otherwise are....well, knuckleheads, I guess.  Of course we screw up, make mistakes and some of our fearless leaders should be thrown down a deep well.  Sometimes, we even speak out both sides of our face, as well.  Anybody out there not guilty of the exact same thing?  

However, we are not guilty of anything more, or less, than anyone else throughout history...and we've contributed a hell of a lot more than some in a very, very brief time (historically speaking).

My point is really that the venom and bile should be toned down until it's appropriate to the reality.  Hypocrites calling us hypocrites is the height of stoopidity.

Like I said, making a point to certain all-too-pervasive, uninformed attitudes.  Please don't feel that I intend to paint everyone on the planet in the same brush...just a particular school of thought.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 01:24:46 PM by Goomba »

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2006, 01:13:24 PM »
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I thought you knew by now Hangtime. I am a eurotard so naturally I hate america and love France and UN.


We know you hate us Nilsen so naturally we have to hate you right back! :D

J/k my friend......I still owe you a hamburger do I not? :)
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.