Author Topic: 1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace  (Read 2202 times)

Offline straffo

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2006, 12:48:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thud
You're clear on the matter but we still don't know whether he would have gone to Afghanistan if his orders had sent him there.
Regardless of ones opinion on the matter it is clear that from the angle of justification for war Afghanistan does differ from Iraq.
I think him being deployed to Afghanistan would have represented the lithmus test on his motives, self-preservance or honest objections. Sadly we will never find out what he would've done in that case.



Don't put reasoning or intelligence in this thread our local expert have already closed the trial = he is a coward(*).




*I think btw he is a lot less than some who are posting on this thread and don't have a single clue of what war is.

btw Hangtime don't you have forgot the constitution is your sentence ?
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...your obligations of service to and for the United States Army...

Offline john9001

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2006, 01:29:37 PM »
ike on eve of d-day invasion to troops::
 ok, how many want to invade france and maybe die on the beach, all in favor raise your hands.

come on guys, it's for a good cause.

Offline Jackal1

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2006, 01:30:08 PM »
Pronunciation: 'mi-l&-"ter-E
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French militaire, from Latin militaris, from milit-, miles soldier
1 a : of or relating to soldiers, arms, or war b : of or relating to armed forces; especially : of or relating to ground or sometimes ground and air forces as opposed to naval forces
2 a : performed or made by armed forces b : supported by armed force
3 : of or relating to the army



......... Seems pretty straight forward and easy to understand to me.
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Offline Mighty1

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2006, 01:43:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Don't put reasoning or intelligence in this thread our local expert have already closed the trial = he is a coward(*).


All we have to go by is what we hear and read from the news and from what I heard him say on the news was enough for me to say he is a coward.

I don't need to hear from anyone else why he did what he did to form my own opinion.  I didn't tell Thud his opinion was wrong I just stated why I felt the way I did.

I was raised to take responsibility for my actions and I expect everyone to do the same. So when I hear him say "Yes I signed up but I changed my mind when I found out I actually had to go to war." I don't feel one bit of sympathy for him.

You may feel different or need more info to decide but I see right and wrong more black and white then some.

It's like hearing about a child molester who raped an 8 year old.  I don't need to hear about the rapist's childhood to decide he should be put behind bars for life.

Not saying anyone is wrong in their opinion I was just stating my own.
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Offline Hangtime

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2006, 01:50:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo

btw Hangtime don't you have forgot the constitution is your sentence ?


Nope.. he is constitutionaly obligated by his oath.. and I don't think that based on the Constitution that service in Iraq is 'illegal'. (my opinion) OTOH, he's ALSO obligated by his contract to The US Army for the term of service he enlisted for.. the Army spent about 1/2 a million training and educating him.. they require that he serves the minimum length of his enlistment as 'payment'... which is why his first request for discharge was refused.

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Offline straffo

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2006, 02:49:29 PM »
I don't know how it work for the US army but had he been volunteer for Afghanistan it would have been better for him I guess.

Big oops on my end for the constitution Hang , I didn't thought it was implicit.

Still, I don't think he is a coward ,he made a pretty hard decision either he was psychologicaly weak and the Army shouldn't have recruited him or he know the probable outcome.

@Mighty1 my comment was general not directed to one or another person.



To conclude I know for sure that in some army obeying an order you think illegal make you a criminal.

But each country got his rules for example in Germany they are "citizen soldier" not solely professional soldier like in the US (I guess it's the result of WWII)

Offline Gh0stFT

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2006, 04:13:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mighty1
You don't join up in the middle of a war and then say "Nay I think I will skip this one".



to bad germany didnt have had more soldiers of his caliber
in ww2, the balls to say NO when you feel something is not right.
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Offline xrtoronto

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2006, 04:26:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
to bad germany didnt have had more soldiers of his caliber
in ww2, the balls to say NO when you feel something is not right.


I had the same thought too!:aok

Offline Maverick

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2006, 04:36:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I don't know how it work for the US army but had he been volunteer for Afghanistan it would have been better for him I guess.

Big oops on my end for the constitution Hang , I didn't thought it was implicit.

Still, I don't think he is a coward ,he made a pretty hard decision either he was psychologicaly weak and the Army shouldn't have recruited him or he know the probable outcome.

@Mighty1 my comment was general not directed to one or another person.



To conclude I know for sure that in some army obeying an order you think illegal make you a criminal.

But each country got his rules for example in Germany they are "citizen soldier" not solely professional soldier like in the US (I guess it's the result of WWII)


For one thing the soldier does not get to pick and choose the conflicts he will engage in. When he takes the oath of service he has to recognise that he is to go where the country and the Army (or any branch of the service) have need of his services. This individuals challenge to the the legality of the conflict is improper and should not have taken this route. He has abrogated his oath of office and using the claim of an "illegal conflict" is just a smokescreen. I would not want him in command of any troops, I wouldn't want him serving period with troops anywhere or in any capacity.

Unfortunately it is impossible to psychologically screen folks to make sure that no one who is not mature enough to realise what he is getting into does not get this far. I doubt the Army recruited him as they don't recruit Officers. They may have made material available to him but to get commissioned, outside of a battlefield commission, you have to apply for it and the training it requires. That training also included the rules of war and his responsibility to his oath.
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Offline x0847Marine

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Re: 1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2006, 05:43:56 PM »
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Originally posted by Yeager
An officer assigned to the 3rd (Stryker) Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division stationed at Fort Lewis is refusing to go to an illegal war

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003046936_soldier08m.html

For me, Im leaning on a verdict of disgrace, but I want to see what others feel after reading his statement in the referenced article.


I volunteer to be on the firing squad that shoots this chicken spackle POS.

Or just send his punkass to the Afghan theatre and let his boys frag him...  I have zero sympathy for folks who sign up to fight, for real.. not a joystick war, then wuss out.

Offline SaburoS

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2006, 06:30:20 PM »
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Nuremburg


Bingo. Beat me to it.
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Offline SaburoS

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2006, 06:39:19 PM »
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
Why did he even join the army then?


Most do it out of patriotism.

Rare for the recruiter to say to the undecided potential recruit: "Well you might find yourself in a place you don't want to be, in a War you don't want to fight, maybe dying for something you don't believe in."

Usually the "sell" is something along the lines of: "The great benefits, the travel, training, etc." to those on the fence of joining up.
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Offline Squire

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2006, 06:46:59 PM »
Soldiers do not enlist to become "conflict-lawyers" deciding what war is "legal" or not. Thats the call of their superiors and governments.

As has been said, "illegal orders" ARE their pervue, but the Iraq war is not in that area.

He should never had enlisted. Its not a health club, there are very serious obligations when one agrees to serve in the armed forces.

I can respect his personal view of the war, thats fine, but he has no right to start making national policy as a junior officer.
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Offline Tumor

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2006, 01:11:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
to bad germany didnt have had more soldiers of his caliber
in ww2, the balls to say NO when you feel something is not right.


Modern militaries are far less likely to execute soldiers for dereliction of duty, insubordination, cowardice and other such offenses (in a time of war).

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Offline Goomba

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2006, 02:39:09 PM »
Were he a civilian, I would tend to look more favorably on the arguments for upholding his principles, sticking to his guns, making the hard moral call, etc...

The problem is, he is NOT a civilian.  He is, however, a grown man with the capacity and obligation to understand the nature and consequences of his committment...regardless of the sell.  He should have been thinking about the price to pay, not the free tuition, training and travel.

Voluntarily, and without coercion, he swore an oath , and subjected himself not only to that oath, but an entirely new legal system...the Uniform Code of Military Justice (in the US).

In doing so, he is no longer entitled to make a moral judgement about the "rightness" of the conflict.  Hell, even the Pope has a hard time with this stuff!  He retains the right and obligation of every soldier to question a blatantly illegal order, though.

The claim of "conscientious objector" is bunko;  a)  only valid for a draftee, involved perhaps against his will, not a volunteer professional, and b)  he could request alternative, non-combat duty and suffer the consequences in silence.  Instead, he made a spectacle, and refused to serve.

Coward, Stupid or both...