Author Topic: Rockets & Ballistics  (Read 2171 times)

Offline Phtom

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« on: June 09, 2006, 11:07:28 AM »
:D

 Does anyone have information readily available on the different types of rockets we use in AH and their use & lethality?  I've noticed differences from say when I fly the FW F-8 with its twelve rockets and rockets on American planes.  Were some of these air to air?  Which ones were more powerful or which ones were lighter when you get the choice in the hangar of two different types?  Any info would be appreciated.

There also used to be a chart that showed the difference in distance between cannon rounds and machine gun rounds before they begin to drop.  If anyone still has this it would be appreciated.  I am looking to post it on our squad page to show our guys how far 50 cals travel as opposed to 30 cals and 303's, and how far 20mm's travel before dropping.  If I remember correctly the cannon rounds would drop faster about a 100 meters before the machine guns. :aok

Offline Retired

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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2006, 12:56:18 PM »
Dont know about rockets but ANY round from BBs, 303, 50cal, 20mm, 30mm, etc begin to fall as soon as they leave the barrel.

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2006, 01:02:26 PM »
Not true, Retired.
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Offline BigR

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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2006, 02:07:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
Not true, Retired.



Yes it is. Simple Physics.  And if it doesn’t work like that in AH, then there’s something wrong.

Offline VooWho

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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2006, 02:09:08 PM »
oh they fall when they come out, about 0.153678th on a inch, because of gravity pulling the bullets down. Will I just made that up, but it could be true.
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Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2006, 02:09:09 PM »
The 50 caliber bullet's trajectory doesnt start to drop until around 500 yards. If you dont beleive me do your homework. This has been chewn over several times on this board alone. And its an argument you'll lose if you want to start it with me.

Do a search for barret research group on the net. They are the gods' of the 50 cal and will teach you anything you need to know about its properties.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 02:11:16 PM by Morpheus »
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Offline BigR

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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2006, 02:13:58 PM »
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/grav.html

The bullet drops as soon as it leaves the barrel, but since the bullet is going so fast, it isn’t apparent till 500yrds. 50cal bullets can’t defy gravity.

Offline Retired

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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2006, 02:54:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
The 50 caliber bullet's trajectory doesnt start to drop until around 500 yards. If you dont beleive me do your homework. This has been chewn over several times on this board alone. And its an argument you'll lose if you want to start it with me.

Do a search for barret research group on the net. They are the gods' of the 50 cal and will teach you anything you need to know about its properties.


You are probably right.  They wont drop enough to make a difference due to their speed.  I was only talking about when the drop begins to happen (no matter how small) :aok

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2006, 03:06:16 PM »
Bullet Trajectory: Fact and Myth

By Mike Nelson

Myths and errors regarding the path of a bullet generally come from a lack of understanding of the forces acting on the bullet before, during, and after its path through the barrel. This article will deal with the primary forces on a bullet's trajectory, and it will mention a few of the secondary forces. The approach is directed toward the average reader. There is no attempt to address concerns of the mathematician or physicist, who should either know this material or should read a more technical and comprehensive treatise.

One of the more pervasive myths associated with bullet trajectory is that "bullets always rise right after they leave the barrel." In general, bullets do rise after leaving the barrel, and they immediately begin to drop. This is not a contradiction, and the explanation is not difficult to understand.

Bullets are affected by gravity whether in flight or not, and, when they leave the barrel, they no longer have any physical support, such as the brass, the box, your pocket, the magazine, the chamber, or the barrel, so they begin to fall. In addition, they are traveling through air, so air resistance progressively slows their flight. On most occasions the barrel is slanted upward slightly to compensate for this immediate drop; thus, for all but extreme shots, since the barrel is aimed slightly upward, the bullet does, indeed, rise slightly after it leaves the barrel, but it bullet never rises above the axis of the barrel. (Just like a football generally rises above the player when they throw a pass. The longer the pass, the greater the starting angle, and the higher the "rise" before the ball begins to fall.)

In scientific terms, "thrown" objects, whether by hand, explosion, springs, compressed air, or other forces, are called "projectiles," their path in space is called their "trajectory," and the study of their trajectories is called "ballistics." Those who fail to understand the elementary physics of ballistics often misinterpret the configuration of barrel and the line of sight and assume that something "special" happens to the bullet during its flight. Many things happen, but nothing "special;" bullets fly just like any other projectile and are subject to the same laws of physics.

The following drawings, though not to exact scale, show the typical paths of bullets and the relationship of these paths to the line of sight, whether determined by open sights or optical sights.

Horizontal Shot. If the barrel is horizontal to the surface of the earth when fired, the bullet never rises above the barrel, and gravity causes an immediate descent.

Typical Alignment. Generally, for what we consider a "horizontal" shot, the sight alignment places the barrel in a slightly upward tilt, and the bullet starts its arc, rises slightly above the level of the muzzle, but never above the axis of the barrel, reaches a peak, then descends. Figure 2 is the graph of a centerfire rifle cartridge that stays within a 6 inch circle for a distance of about 210 yards. Sighted in at approximately 170 yards, this round is approximately 3 inches high at 100 yards and three inches low at approximately 210 yards. You must, of course, always check trajectory data for your particular rifle and cartridge combination.

Velocity. The velocity is a factor in determining energy on impact and the horizontal velocity determines how far the bullet travels before it hits the ground. The above illustrations apply to all ballistic projectiles whether bullets, rocks, or ping pong balls.

Low Velocity Bullets. Bullets at nominally 800 fps to perhaps 1600 fps, such as 22 LR, most pistols, and older rifle cartridges, must follow a rather high arc in order to reach a target 100 yards away. In fact, most of these slower cartridges are only useful to about 50 yards, perhaps 75 yards for some in the upper end of this range.

High Velocity Bullets. Bullets at 2600 fps and up, such as the .223, 22-250, .243/6mm, .270, .308, 30-06, follow a much lower arc to reach a target, and their useful range can be upward of 200 yards. These are often referred to as "flatter" trajectories. With higher velocities, these bullets go much further before gravity and air resistance cause them to fall below the initial line of sight.

Since the barrel is generally directed at an angle to the line of sight, sighting directly upward or directly downward results in a trajectory that deviates even more from the line of sight than the typical, relatively level shot. Still, the effects of gravity and air resistance are the same as far as the bullet is concerned, it is just that the trajectory at such a steep angle is more divergent from the line of sight.

Secondary Ballistics Phenomena. In general, bullets follow a parabolic arc. In reality, that arc is modified significantly by air resistance, which slows the bullet during flight and effects a shortening of the arc down range. That is why the highest point of the usable portion of the trajectory is not the midpoint of that trajectory. Bullet shape and the spin from rifling also influence the trajectory slightly by reducing air resistance and stabilizing bullet orientation. That is why a 500 grain rifle bullet, for example, has a much better trajectory than a 500 grain ball from a smooth bore, all other things being equal.

Fact or Myth. So, does a bullet rise after it leaves the muzzle? One says, "yes." Another says, "no." Who is correct? Both could be correct because of different meanings associated with the word, "rise." They might argue incessantly, but their argument will not change the physical aspects of the path of the bullet. If they would concentrate on discussing the physical events, they would eventually conclude that they were each using the word, "rise," differently or that one of them did not understand elementary ballistics.
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Offline Elfie

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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2006, 03:11:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BigR
Yes it is. Simple Physics.  And if it doesn’t work like that in AH, then there’s something wrong.


Actually, it depends on where the gun is sighted to hit *dead on*. If the gun is sighted to hit dead on at 100 yards, the bullet will actually rise before it gets to the 100 yard mark and drop after that.

In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark. Before the 400 yard mark they should actually rise a bit.

Using the same 400 yd convergence you can test this using the .target command. Set the target at 200 yds and the majority of your bullets will hit a bit high, setting the target at 600 yds and most will be a bit low. I just did this offline.

Every ballistics graph I have ever seen show every bullet no matter what caliber moving through the air in an arc.
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Offline Nightshift82

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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2006, 03:45:16 PM »
hey guys, i think the question is, when do they start to drop in Aces High
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Offline Retired

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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2006, 04:20:00 PM »
This is funny.  The assumption is a horizontal shot.  The talk ia about bullets and not about barrels.  I am smart enough - I think - to understand that if you shoot a bullet aiming at the clouds, it will take a while for it to drop.  Same goes for the barrel pointing up.  Duh, the bullet will rise.  

I don't need a 50cal for this.  I can shoot a brick in the air at an angle and I guarantee you it will rise :rofl

Offline Donzo

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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2006, 04:23:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Actually, it depends on where the gun is sighted to hit *dead on*. If the gun is sighted to hit dead on at 100 yards, the bullet will actually rise before it gets to the 100 yard mark and drop after that.

In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark. Before the 400 yard mark they should actually rise a bit.

Using the same 400 yd convergence you can test this using the .target command. Set the target at 200 yds and the majority of your bullets will hit a bit high, setting the target at 600 yds and most will be a bit low. I just did this offline.

Every ballistics graph I have ever seen show every bullet no matter what caliber moving through the air in an arc.


In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark.

Drop releative to what?  If you think about what you said, the bullet arcs up to the 200 yard mark then begins to drop.  In this case the bullet rises from the plane of the barrel until it reaches the 200 yard mark.  Then it begins to drop until it reaches the plane of the barrel at 400 yards.  At this time it begins to "drop" below the plane of the barrel.

Offline Donzo

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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2006, 04:27:26 PM »

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2006, 04:39:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark.

Drop releative to what?  If you think about what you said, the bullet arcs up to the 200 yard mark then begins to drop.  In this case the bullet rises from the plane of the barrel until it reaches the 200 yard mark.  Then it begins to drop until it reaches the plane of the barrel at 400 yards.  At this time it begins to "drop" below the plane of the barrel.


The drop I was speaking of is in relation to where the bullet hits *dead on* w/o having to compensate for drop/rise. In this case, 400 yards.

Where the projectile peaks in its arc is dependent on several things including, the specific round, (some rounds have flatter trajectories than others, compare the trajectory for the .50 or Hispano to the German 30mm round we have in AH for a good example of this), the specific load, (amount and type of powder used, projectile design, barrel length can all affect the trajectory). I think there are other variables as well that I cant think of just off the top of my head as well.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.