Stay away from Jiffy Lube

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Habu
Here is a true life example of why you should not trust a sensor to determine when to change your oil.

Are you saying that you know more about my car than the people who made it? I've already posted a .PDF article about Long Life oil ^ written by VW/Audi themselves. The vehicle handbook tells me to monitor the service indicator, which will alert me when service and oil change become due. It also says that the oil quality is continually monitored by sensors.

Now, given the choice between the following, which would you choose?

• Acting upon the advice of the very people who built the car, and whose recommended service and oil change intervals are supported by their own warranty, or...
• Acting upon the recommendation of a few guys in the AH O'Club?

Erm... tough choice here.........  Mmmm..OK, I think I'll go with VW/Audi! :cool:

Do you know that unless your oil heats to above 212 F during a drive it will not boil off any moisture that gets into it?

"Boil" being the operative word??? My Golf VR6 had an oil temperature indicator. In normal running it would go to 96°. (100° = 212F) That's plenty hot enough for water to be evaporated out. Water will evaporate at room temperature, never mind 212F.

So, you don't agree with the use of sensors? I guess you won't like the Boeing 787 Dreamliner anti-turbulence design then. I read about it today in the Sunday Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2230615.html

The 787 Dreamliner, which is expected to enter service in 2008, will have sensors that detect strong gusts of wind and automatically adjust the movement of the aircraft to prevent it from being buffeted around.
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Sensors on the 787, which will have a capacity of 250 passengers, will identify changes in air pressure and determine “the angle of attack”. The aircraft’s flaps and wing tips will then be moved accordingly so they counter vertical gusts, while the rudder will be adjusted to reduce side-to-side “tail-wagging”.

Well, well! S-s-s-sensors! I guess you and Brenjen could get together and redesign this aircraft to have a little door that the pilot can open to stick his hand out, and "feel" the turbulence!

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
^ Honorary member of jackall's Flat Earth Society!

The Society has refused an offer to speak at The Qatar Cafe For Lunch Bunch annual meeting.

[lazs2]

I don't believe that the sensors analyze the oil.

What they do is extrapolate a result based on how hard and often and how many starts and that sort of thing... they figure out how badly the additives in the oil may be depleted or how dirty (if everything goes just right) the oil would be under those conditions and then changes the recomendations they make based on that.

I have no idea how accurate they are but they would certainly be a useful tool.

I would not forgo checking the oil levels manualy or changing oil based on reasonable intervals based on the sensors tho.

lazs

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
I don't believe that the sensors analyze the oil.

But until yesterday, you didn't believe that long life oil could be used in diesel engines.

And I'm guessing that you haven't read the .PDF document I posted about Long Life oil. Not only does this state that sensors continually monitor the oil quality, but that the system will detect if more than ½ litre of non-longlife oil has been added, and will shorten the service interval accordingly. Are you trying to tell me that this document, produced by Volkswagen Audi Group, is a pack of lies??

What they do is extrapolate a result based on how hard and often and how many starts and that sort of thing...

Is this a statement of fact? Sorry Lazs, but I'll have to say to you what I said to Habu. I'll continue to take my advice from V.A.G. - the people who made my car and back it up with a 3 year/60,000 mile warranty, if I have it serviced at the recommended (18,000 mile) interval. I think this approach is going to work better for me in the long run, than technical tips from the AH O'Club.

Lazs, I don't doubt that you're a fountain of knowledge on legacy V8 engines designed in the 1960s or earlier, and whose ignition systems used a crude arrangement of ignition coil with a low tension circuit that was controlled by a set of "points" and a condensor. But that's all old hat - as it was by the end of the 1970s, and technology has moved on. Time to move with it...

[mora]

Originally posted by lazs2
I would not forgo checking the oil levels manualy or changing oil based on reasonable intervals based on the sensors tho.

Dont get a Merc then, the newer ones don't have an oil stick at all. What is the "reasonable interval" then? Many seem to insist that it's 3k miles for some unspecified reason.

Question for those who obey the "reasonable" oil change intervals.. What would be the reasonable oil change interval for the MB Actros truck? Accoding to the manufacturer the oil change interval is between 62k and 75k miles.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by mora
What is the "reasonable interval" then? Many seem to insist that it's 3k miles for some unspecified reason.

Mora - it's the interval *they* see as right and proper, based on working with engines that utilise 50 year old technology.

[Maverick]

Actually every reciprocating internal combustion engine uses the same basic technology. Flailing pistons in cylinders burning hydrocarbons and the combustion chanber is sealed with spring steel piston rings. All of this is lubricated and semi cooled with oil. The OTTO cycle is still the main ingredient in almost every motor vehicle in existance and it is far older than 50 years old. But don't let that spoil your inflated sense of superiority beetle.

[mora]

So that's the point then? Because the principle is the same, the interval should the same.. Should the modern jet engines be overhauled as often as ME-262's were then? Afterall the engines have the same operating principle.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Maverick
Actually every reciprocating internal combustion engine uses the same basic technology. Flailing pistons in cylinders burning hydrocarbons and the combustion chanber is sealed with spring steel piston rings. All of this is lubricated and semi cooled with oil. The OTTO cycle is still the main ingredient in almost every motor vehicle in existance and it is far older than 50 years old. But don't let that spoil your inflated sense of superiority beetle.

Wot Mora said ^ and...

...my 1972 air cooled beetle needed fresh oil at least once every 3000 miles. It had a no frills basic engine, and used a straight SAE 30 oil. Over the winter, my repairman even suggested a 1500 mile oil change interval, while the car was not being used much.

And then we have the modern day diesels that can run (in some cases) 30,000 miles without needing an oil change. I don't achieve that with my driving pattern, but I can go 18,000 miles between services.

So what's changed? Well... my Audi diesel engine was designed in the new millennium, and the beetle engine was designed in the 1960s or earlier. The two engines are completely different, Maverick. Nothing to do with my "inflated sense of superiority". You see there's this little thing called "progress". Helluva concept, and I don't expect you to assimilate it on the first read.

[Maverick]

beetle, it still all comes down to the same thing. Typically 4 cycles to make the engine go. The same basic components in them, far older than 50 years, new metalurgy and or improvements included. The improvements do not change the basic function or how it works. You and mora are reading far far more into my post than what was there, no big surprise. There has been no major improvement of the entire process even in your audi, but I don't expect you to understand it either.

The oil still does the same functions, clean, lube and cool. Change it in accordance with environment, usage you put it through and what the manufacturer says.

If you really want to know the condition of the oil and use it to the fullest extent of it's useful life, take a sample and have it analyzed. A good lab with a gas chromatograph spectrometer will tell you the condition of the oil and if it is safe to continue to use it based on additives, contaminates and how well it's being filtered. They may advise you to replace the oil and filter or just the filter. They can also tell you based on a series of analysis of your oil over a period of time the condition of your bearings, rings and some other components in the engine due to the things that find their way into the oil. I don't believe there is that kind of equipment in any motor vehicle.

[Suave]

BEWARE THE JIFFEY LUUUUUBE!!!1

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Maverick
If you really want to know the condition of the oil and use it to the fullest extent of it's useful life, take a sample and have it analyzed. A good lab with a gas chromatograph spectrometer will tell you the condition of the oil and if it is safe to continue to use it based on additives, contaminates and how well it's being filtered. They may advise you to replace the oil and filter or just the filter. They can also tell you based on a series of analysis of your oil over a period of time the condition of your bearings, rings and some other components in the engine due to the things that find their way into the oil. I don't believe there is that kind of equipment in any motor vehicle.

Thanks, but I don't think there's any need for all that. VW/Audi states the position quite clearly in that .PDF I linked further up ^ and that their engines have sensors for monitoring the condition of the oil. Their recommended service schedule is backed up by a 60,000 mile warranty, so I don't see the need for taking a sample of my engine oil to a lab for analysis when the standard equipment in the engine is sensitive enough that it can even detect if non LongLife oil has been added, and will adjust the service interval accordingly if it has.

There has been no major improvement of the entire process even in your audi, but I don't expect you to understand it either.

Well that's just good old fashioned BS, I'm afraid. Back in the 1960s, most cars on the road in Britain had a top speed of no more than about 80mph. 100mph was the yardstick of a "performance car". Nowadays, virtually any car can do 100mph, even diesels, now that turbochargers are pretty much standard. There have been huge improvements in fuel economy too, in case you hadn't noticed. Who would have believed back in the 1960s, that we would have cars available with a top speed of over 130mph which could achieve 50mpg or more. Who, in the 1960s, would have believed that such a feat was possible with a diesel engine? Indeed, if you would look to Replicant's post, you'll see that diesel powered car has just won the Le Mans 24h. An Audi, no less!

"No major improvement of the entire process" ??? Which rock have you been under for the last 30 years?

[Maverick]

beetle go jump in the lake, really. It's obvious that you really don't have much of a clue as to what makes a reciprocating engine work. You are not going to convince me that internal engines that because there has been some refinements that they are radically different and not the same kind of critter. Now that is BS. They all use pistons, rings cylinders, valves intake and exhaust. That has remained the same for well over 75 to 100 years. Even diesels use the same internal parts. Nothing basic has changed in the design.

Trying to discuss something with you is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes my time and you still can't sing.

You can even have the last word.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by mora
Should the modern jet engines be overhauled as often as ME-262's were then? Afterall the engines have the same operating principle.

LOL Mora! I couldn't help noticing how your question was ignored.

And... we've still not been given that as yet unspecified reason for the 3k oil changes even on the latest engines. Perhaps we need to allow more time for a reason to be made up.

[lazs2]

Long ago...  PG&E (the power company) had a policy of never changing oil in their fleet vehicles.

The reasoning was that they got rid of the vehicles every 3-6 years in any case and all the depreciation on them was the main thing in any case soooo...

A vehicle that smoked a little or was down on compression was worth very little less than a good one at auction.... and... they saved all that money on maitenence.   It was rare that they would have a complete engine failure due to such a maintenance plan.

Beet and others are probly right.... for as long as they are going to own the cars..... they are wasting money on frequent oil changes..

Any problems caused by running oil with depleted additives and grit in it will not be their problem as they will have traded the car in long before the effects are apparent.

lazs