Author Topic: CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody  (Read 1242 times)

Offline Simaril

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« on: June 15, 2006, 11:08:37 AM »
Laz pointed out in another thread jsut how much fun carrier battles can be, and that got me thinking.

Carriers are uniquely useful to ALL PLAYER TYPES in AH -- they allow captures and sneaks by projecting power deep into enemy turf; they're the only platform that allow ship to ship battles for gunner guys; and they allow for some really great fights with short transit tiimes for the fighter guys.


Since they help everybody, it makes sense that more = better.


So, heres a thought or 2:

!) Increase the Damage-to-destroy for carriers to match a small airfield's hangars. After all, for game purposes they are jsut mobile small airfields!

Right now fighter/bomber/vehicle hangars take 3000lbs HE each, while the carrier loses capability for all three with 8000lbs. A small field has 3 fighter hangars, a VH, and (umm I think) 3  bomber hangars. Proportionately, carriers could reasonably be set to go down with 16,000 to 20,000 lbs damage. Harder to kill means more play time in the hot zone before they inevitably go down. If necessary to maintain gameplay, HT could also slow the autorecharge rate for ships to prevent the CV being indestructable -- a pretty fair tradeoff, and one that should effectively balance the advantages of higher damage numbers.

PLEASE NOTE: the "what would a real carrier take" argument is irrelevant; AH carriers already take far more bomb damage that ANY ww2 carrier could possibly sustain. The fact that they're already set that high shows that they are movable strategic icons for AH, not "simulated" objects like the planes and tanks That being so, it just makes sense that the numbers can be tweaked as needed to get the best possible gameplay out of the platforms.

2) Make the 5" gun turrets armored targets, just like tanks. So, it would take either bombs or AP ammo to do any damage at all.

Thsi one jsut makes sense. For the simulation arguiers, the armor on 5" gun turrets is thicker than vehicle armor, so theres no way it should go down with less penetrating ammo than a Panzer takes. For the "whatever works to make it fun" guys like me, well tougher carriers mean more fun and less time with the great CV asset doing multiple sector transits.
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Offline Oleg

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Re: CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2006, 11:20:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Proportionately, carriers could reasonably be set to go down with 16,000 to 20,000 lbs damage.


You want only level buffs will able to sink CV? Current domination of level bombers in CV killer role is not enough?
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Offline Simaril

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2006, 11:29:55 AM »
Not quite sure i follow you.

Making it harder to sink makes it harder for everybody, no matter what they fly.

Making it harder means everybody gets to do the fun stuff carriers have to offer, only more and longer.

Making it harder means LESS domination by single players (in buffs or not), not more.




And, it fits with the idea of adjusting gameplay to a more densely populated arena -- harder to sink means more teamwork, or more effort by individuals.
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Offline Mayhem

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2006, 12:48:32 PM »
I disagree the only thing the CV groups need is maybe the ability to prioritize targets. (lone fighter vs. bomber group or torpedo bombers)

The biggest problem right now however isn't the CV groups or the Hardness of the CV group's ships guns ect.

The biggest problem is the people that control them.

You run your carrier so close to an enemy base that tanks can shoot your CV your asking for it to get sunk. To be honest you really shouldn’t be running a CV close enough to an enemy base for it to be seen.

Look at how CV groups are currently being used and historically been used. Nimitz never ran his CV groups within swimming distance of shore in most cases CV groups where out of site of both land and Enemy CV groups Unless they where defending the land.

The other day I watched some one run not one but 2 CV groups between 2 island bases. Not only where these 2 CV groups between them they where both together and as close to land as you could get. Who ever had control of them was asking to get them sunk and did his countrymen a horrible disservice.

We already have shore batteries on most maps. What are the shore batteries for .... to sink CV groups that get to close. You can hit a base with the main guns wihtout getting close enough to be seen. all you need to do is set to land mode and click on the map.

As I said before in the other thread we need to require and IQ test for the would be captain so we can weed out the Cpt. Giligans

This really didn't need a new thread.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 12:54:19 PM by Mayhem »
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Offline Oleg

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2006, 12:52:58 PM »
Lanc formation can carry 42000lb, B24 - 24000lb, B17 - 18000lb. Even if CV hardness will set to 20000lb it can be sink by single bomber group.
Dive bombers/attackets have max load 4000lb (Ju87), typical - 2000lb. Will need up to 10 pilots to sink CV. Now from 2 to 4 players needed.
Who will penalize more?
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Offline Kweassa

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2006, 01:15:57 PM »
Making it harder to sink CVs is a good idea.. but toughening the ships can hardly be considered a real solution. The CVs have already been doubled in its durability from 4,000lbs to 8,000 and it was quickly proven that nothing really changed at all.

 Toughening it up even more, simply means the same people doing the same shi* a lot more than they used to do it - the means are the same, so they will do it again and again until the CV is finally sunk.

 
 IMHO things like these represent a fundamental problem. The way how the AA defenses work, the overly simplified bombsights, how fighters can do any sort of wild maneuvering at any speeds before dropping their bombs... etc etc.

 If CV bombing should be made harder, then it should be done by introducing the core of real-life difficulties that are not represented in the game, that makes bombing difficult - not by just "buffing up" the targets each time someone raises their voice that "it's too easy to kill XXX stuff".

 
 IMHO;


1) the AA defenses on the CVs should be toughened up or changed
2) the bombsight calibration process should be made more harder
3) the bomb drop accuracy should be lowered - even when a bombsight is ideally, perfectly calibrated, there should always be a chance of some kind of dispersion in the bombs, which should make pin-point salvo drops unpreferred
4) the 1000lbs ordnance should be perked
5) bombs types should be specified, so not all fighters can carry any armament that will always prove to be effective under whatever circumstances...
6) the late-war stock of planes, which often prove to be close to uninterceptable, should all be perked


 In short, the CV issue is an amalgam of multitude of problems that surround the MA environment - it's not just about how tough the CV is. It's about why people play in a certain way that is undersirable to overall gameplay.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 01:26:57 PM by Kweassa »

Offline croduh

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2006, 01:32:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
2) the bombsight calibration process should be made more harder
3) the bomb drop accuracy should be lowered - even when a bombsight is ideally, perfectly calibrated, there should always be a chance of some kind of dispersion in the bombs, which should make pin-point salvo drops unpreferred

I totaly support this one

Offline FiLtH

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2006, 01:36:42 PM »
Like Ive said a million times before, Id like to see the CV tougher, but make it so the eggs kill radar, and guns, but torps are required to actually sink it. Something like this...

  CV hit by bombs that destroy the radar, deck guns and hanger. The CV burns and is unable to launch planes. When the hanger regens the fires go out. Make it so that it would take 20 1000 lb bombs to actually make it sink.

  CV could also be sunk by torpedoes. Make it so 5 torps will sink a cv.

   Unless its sunk it stays in area, repairs damage and continues to launch when hanger is up, like an airfield.

    Give the TBF, and Kate a job! AND take double load torp away from JU88.

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Offline Clifra Jones

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2006, 01:48:28 PM »
I've been saying for a long time that what we need is a secondary task group consisting of a cruiser, destroyers and troop carriers. This tack group will follow the main task group when unattended but can be controlled by players. Once under control it can be brought close to shore to launch LVTs while keeping the main carrier group out to sea. This way finding the CV wher the aircraft is coming from would be much more difficult than it is now.

This is the way it was/is done in RL.

I also agree with Mayhem, It is more the people who control the CVs than the CVs themselves.

Offline 999000

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2006, 03:01:56 PM »
Filth is right on!..make cv sunk only with torpeedo's!
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Offline AutoPilot

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2006, 03:02:53 PM »
I would like too see the CV listing to one side after so many hits.

Offline Mayhem

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2006, 09:10:29 PM »
I can agree with having a carrier list after so many hits. maybe have it list at the current level of damage then sink after one more 1k pounder hits it.

I can agree the AAA needs to prioritize targets.

Hardening a carrier group really doesn't solve anything and starts making the game unrealistic. Historically a well placed bomb or two could take out a carrier, specially US carriers since they had wood decks. And individual pilots did get threw to dive bomb a CV. However level bombing was almost ineffective, Mainly because a CV would just rapidly zig zag to evade falling bombs. it would be nice to have an evasive maneuver button on the CV panel, unfortunately some one is going to abuse it by hitting it as people take off just for their immature giggle factor.

Some one mentioned Bombers. Me personally I think the way the game has bombers sucks. You fly not one but three bombers. You control not one gun but all the guns and not just on one craft but all of them. Considering how many guns their are on a b-17 that fire backwards means that a bomber group can hit harder then p47. I preferred Air warrior's method to gunned buffs. bring back the death star! or at least go back to one bomber per pilot with the b29 style guns not 3. At least trim it back so the pilot can only man the guns on one buff at a time.


What’s funny is very few people even mention the Captain Gilligan tactics being used in regards to using the CV groups. The biggest problem with the CV groups are the people that are controlling them. If I could control an enemies CV group I’d bring it as close to my base as possible so Planes Tanks and Shore batteries do not have to work as hard to sink it. What do most people do with a CV group? They run it right up to an enemy base.

We are loosing our CV’s because people do not know how to use them!

Not because they are to soft!

The only thing making them easy to kill are the Captian Gilligans.

Clifra Jones had a nifty idea. It would be nice to see bigger CV groups mabey 2 or 3 carriers an actual battleship 2 cruisers a troop ship ect.

Rather then make the CV harder how about just adding a cv or 2? at least it would be a little more historically accurate then just making the CVs harder.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 09:14:58 PM by Mayhem »
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Offline FiLtH

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2006, 11:16:36 PM »
We'd need the DEs to fire torps too.

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Offline Kev367th

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2006, 11:31:04 PM »
I think bigger CV groups with cannons/MG rounds unable to do ANY damage is most likely the answer.

Maybe make a few CV groups with armoured decks like the Brits had.

AAA needs looking at also. How many Kamikaze actually got through to CV's or capital ships.?

The whole damage model needs overhauled, very rarely was it all or nothing.
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Offline Stoney74

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CV Idea Redux: Tougher carriers help everybody
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2006, 11:56:08 PM »
I love the idea of CV's in the game.  I'm a big fan of the blue airplanes and the idea of flying on and off the boat.  

I agree the main problem is survivability.  But the survivability problem is more complex than the amount of bombs required to sink them.  I think the 3 biggest contributing factors to survivability are:

(1)  The MA Dar Bar
(2)  Distance between bases
(3)  Amphib landings

1.  The MA Dar Bar.  In real life, CV's (say at Midway) engaged each other beyond radar range of each other.  The aircraft were the striking power, period.  Not even the massive 16 inchers of the U.S. BB's traded licks with Japanese naval craft.  Aircraft were launched from CV's that were 300-400 miles away from each other.  That's 12 or more sectors in the MA away from each other.  Neither side had the ability to instantly see that suspect dar bar growing in a water only sector in the middle of the ocean and know that represented an enemy CV launching some planes.  I can't tell you how many times I've tried to preemptively launch against shore batteries and ordinance before the CV got inside a threat distance, to see people screaming on country channel that I was "giving away the location of the CV".  I was two sectors away.  And, dutifully, the enemy launched a group of B-24's that knocked out the CV.  Currently, there is no safe water sector to launch planes without being discovered.  I don't know what the range of search radar was during WWII, but I know it wasn't 300 miles.  Otherwise, the U.S. wouldn't have had coastwatchers in the Solomon Islands.  Further, the indicator in the MA is a bar that shows you quantity of planes in a sector, not a quantity and bearing/distance.  I believe the search radar was 2-D, it would give range/bearing, and the size of the return would indicate a relative size of the incoming formation.  This way, the target CV had time to organize a CAP, and respond to the incoming attack.  In the MA, all we see is a bar growing in an entire sector.  We don't know where that bar is going--we can only guess.  And trying to intercept B-24's far enough away to drop all 3 before they get ordnance off is tough when you don't know for sure which way they are coming in until they hit the radar ring at 12 miles?  In real life, the defenders knew which way the attack was coming in, while the attackers had to do some searching within an area before narrowing in on the exact location of the ships.  Also, both sides had the ability to put a large number of aircraft in the air and on the way to target without (1) the enemy picking up the inbound aircraft, and (2) noting where they took off from as soon as they climbed above 300 feet.

2.  Distance Between Bases.  In the MA, the bases (for reasons I understand) are too close to effectively allow preparation time for the incoming attack.  Many times, planes will up to defend a base when it starts flashing, only to find the bad guys are level bombers at 18K and untouchable for 4-5 minutes until you can climb to meet them.  Say the bombers are at 240 mph ground speed, they cover 4 miles a minute, and can close from the radar ring to the ordnance release point faster than the defenders can climb to meet them.  Also, you may notice that enemy dar bar coming a few sectors away, but with 4 friendly bases within a sector of each other, which base is the target?  When Henderson Field was the only active U.S. field in the Solomons, it was pretty easy to know what to defend when the coast watchers spotted Japanese bombers.  The Germans would pick up U.S. or Brit bombers coming in from England as soon as they were over the coast.  From there, it was a simple excercise in geometry to figure out what the target was.  As the allied bombers continued, the Germans were able to narrow down the possible targets and then vector fighters to hit them before they arrived.  In order to defend the CV's in the MA, and have enough time to up a CAP capable of defending, the reaction time must be increased so that a Hellcat, or Corsair, can take the 5 minutes needed to climb to altitude and then get vectored to the enemy, before the ordnance release point.

3.  Amphib Landings.  In order to take a base from the sea, the CV has to get within approximately 15000 meters to up amtracks to hit the beach.  One key element of any real-life amphib landing is local air superiority.  If you don't have it, you don't land.  While you could CAP the base you're taking, there's one or more within 20 miles the enemy can up from (see argument #2).  Therefore, to exercise local air superiority for the landing, you would really need to CAP 3 or 4 bases, take out the ord, and possibly the BH's as well, and then maintain that for as long as it takes to get the town down, move the ships in close, and get troops ashore.  Pretty difficult coordination for the MA, in my opinion.  Besides, like I said in the first argument, the aircraft comprise the striking power of the CV, not the 8 inchers on the cruiser, or the amtracks in the vehicle hold.  Someone else recommended maybe having troop transports in a different group.  That may be an answer, I don't know.

The CV group is certainly an asset if used well.  But, it is almost impossible to do anything with it without instantly exposing it to impending destruction, since the ability to keep it hidden is extremely difficult.  Furthermore, the Dar Bar helps out the enemy much more than helps anyone trying to defend or CAP the CV group by giving away the location of the CV and not defining the route of the incoming enemy bombers.  Last, with bases as close together as they are in the MA and the need to bring the CV in close to drop troops, it really exposes the CV to a short life in the attack.

I wish the Dar Bar showed a bearing to targets.  I don't need a God-Radar, just what they had back then.  I also wish the Dar Bar had some sort of range, maybe a couple of sectors beyond the imaginary line connecting the "front" between countries.  I don't really want bases to be much more distant from each other in the MA, since droning for half an hour to get into the action would run most people away from the game.  But, I do not think that hardening the CV any more than it is is a good solution.

Just my humble opinion.

Cheers,