Allies vs Axis Arena: some reflexions

[sparow]

Hi all,

First of all, I would like to thank all - management and users - for the work and effort in creating and keeping alive AvsA, former CT.

I must say that CT was, and still is, the one of the main reasons to keep my interest in AH for all these years. The challenges, the setups, the people, in this arena, all contribute to give me a rewarding experience and, although I hardly put more than 35/40 hours of flying time per month, I find them rewarding and satisfying.

Beeing a true fan of historical correction and maximum realism as possible in a simulation, I only regret the low numbers that I find regularly in AvA when I am present. I do not know if it is different in other time zones - I'm in Europe - but, for the posts I have read, looks like the arena is having trouble in atracting players.

How can this be solved without transforming AvA in a transvestite MA? And, why should we need much more numbers? Basically, IMHO, we have to choose if we attract more people or if we transform AvA in some kind of "experten ghetto" for realism freaks...Neither solution is good, really...

So, in AvA we have some of the finest maps I ever saw online and no one to fill them...I feel sad when I log into Fin/Rus scenario and there is not enough people to fill two squadrons rosters...No bombing formations, no tank battles, nothing...Only - although very satisfying - endless dogfigthing between the same pilots...

It happens in the BoB scenario, the Fin/Rus scenario, it happens in whatever scenario is uploaded. Why? Why aren't the buffs attracted to AvA? Why aren't the tank fans driven to some of the best scenarios ever designed for massive tank battles?

I think about this many times...and, although I am sure that I do not have the magic answer, I faced myself many times with one possible answer: purpose.

AvA lacks purpose. Let me try to explain myself better. What would motivate a group of buffs to show up and fill the skies with bombers - and the land with craters? A point, some reward, the feeling that they are not there just to add to some fighter jock tally. And maybe status, prizes, perks. Maybe. The same applies to the gv chaps. Or the gunners of the world...

OTOH, AH, like many other WW2 combat sims, was developed and based in hard-core fighter pilots culture. All is based in fighter power and fighter combat. So, we could choose another approach: make smaller maps, with less area and fields, just for fighters, but where it would be possible for fighters to attain a geographical superiority without the need for bombers, gv's or fleets. But that would be a crippled AvA...

Another thought: why not create smaller historical setups, not of battles, but of operations? Instead of trying to recreate Midway, do Pearl Harbour instead. Instead trying to do Kursk, a smaller historical setup, a tactical battle with very definite objectives. For instance: in BoB the LW objective would be closing all RAF airfields - not invading the island - and RAF duty would be to defend it, not bombing France in an early Normandy landing...

In the Med, why not smaller operations, why not Malta, why not Crete or Greece? In the PTO, smaller ops, where the goals would be very definite.

I know that I am not inventing the wheel, but...I would like to see more people in, and the absolute need to have strategic or, at least, tactic objectives and coordination.

With the actual low numbers, we could - if it would be possible, wich I know is not - to have an historical allocation of aircraft per field and expect attrition to present his bill by resetting the map when one of the parts spent all his aircraft, either in futile doghfights, flying accidents or simple hangar bombing. That would give some brand new perspective regarding an aircrafts cost and operational value.

I also think that, should the AvA go to "experten ghetto", that some things should be tweaked a little bit: no radio comms between aircraft that historically didn't carry radios, no radar where there was any, hell, not even medium range icons!

The problem with the lack of some aircraft may be restrictive to build some historical setups. Lets build the possible ones and not invent "tropicalised" JU88's in the Pacific. They're allright in the Mediterranean. In Stalingrad they need winter conversion...

How to solve this dillema? What do you chaps think about it? How to bring more people in and - don't get me wrong - the right people for AvA?

How can we save ourselves from extinction? We must evolve, otherwyse, we die...


Sparrow
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
Pugnis et calcibus

[Lye-El]

Originally posted by sparow


So, in AvA we have some of the finest maps I ever saw online and no one to fill them...I feel sad when I log into Fin/Rus scenario and there is not enough people to fill two squadrons rosters...No bombing formations, no tank battles, nothing...Only - although very satisfying - endless dogfigthing between the same pilots...

 

It sounds exactly like what the MA furballer types say they want. No toolshedders, no land grab, just endless dogfighting. Sounds perfect for them, wonder why they are not  here. Maybe they can't fly their favorite aircraft.

[sparow]

Funny thing, now that you mentioned it, you might be right!
As it is to be the real MA furballer paradise, shangri-la of all lone wolves, mother of all eternal dogfights, the only thing that's missing is an outrageous mix of uber-planes, free for all...

Maybe if we let this out they all migrate to AvA and leave MA for those like us that still believe in strategy, resource management, planned missions, sweeps, CAPs, RESCAPS and those pesky annoying things that stop us of getting 75 kills in one evening...

Maybe even go back to life Chuck Yeagar's flight model...no stall, no spins, no problems. Better, let's play Carmageddon, has more gore by fps...

Nice point, nicely put.

Thanks,

Sparrow

[SuperDud]

Originally posted by Lye-El
It sounds exactly like what the MA furballer types say they want. No toolshedders, no land grab, just endless dogfighting. Sounds perfect for them, wonder why they are not  here. Maybe they can't fly their favorite aircraft.

You are 100% correct

[Panzzer]

Sparrow, you had some good points in there. I think it's the people who fly in the AvA that make it such a unique and pleasant environment... Historical plane sets don't appeal to everyone, I guess. Or people just don't know about the AvA, it's easier to click on the Main, that's where all the others are.

But for the smaller battles, with a certain purpose, there are the Special Events here in AH, like snapshots every week and scenarios every now and then.

I admit, AvA has been pretty quiet during Euro-time lately. But it's summer now, I expect to see more people there after the summer. Our squad will have squad nights, at least..

Cheers.

[Nifty]

The reason is like Lye said.  They can't fly their favorite plane.  The other reason is that some people like varied fights.

Last night, the furball was good.  The problem is, if you were Allied, you furballed in the Spit V or P-40E.  I saw 95% Zekes, 4% Tonies, and 1% Vals.

The furball itself is something that, for example, Lazs would enjoy for a little bit, but he'd get bored with it because of the lack of variety.  (not putting words in his mouth, he's said this himself on numerous occasions over the years.)

The "true" furballer wants the furball we had last night, but with all the similar performing planes available to both sides, so you would see, again for example, a Zeke fighting a Zeke.

[sparow]

Hi all!

Pannzer, I really appreciate the effort that the staff has put into AvA. I raised this topic because I really wish that AvA becomes a meeting point for all those that enjoy - not allways balanced - historical engagements.

I speak against myself because I mainly fly fighters - some will say very poorly :-) - and i'm an even worse bomber pilot and I rarely fly the big ones...

But why do we need such big maps when we do have so low numbers? Why do we have such complex maps when we have no bombers to destroy strategic targets and force heavy fighter defense that would force fighter escorts?

Are we setting our sights too high? Are we trying to create MA sizelike maps to 20 players? That's my point...No one tries to capture a field when one has 3 or 4 players online. Unless...

Unless rules were a bit different. Like making easier to knock an airfield out of action for a while. How long it takes to fill 20 or 30 small craters in a runway and make it safe for operations? Two hours? Close the field for two hours...How many planes you destroy starfing a hangar? Four? That means one third or one fourth of a squadron plane allocation...How long would it take to replace these planes? More than one day, I think...
On CV scenarios how many planes fit in one CV? How much time is needed to replace a sunken CV? Months...

In a simpler map, we could focus on very definite tactical objectives...one factory, one refinery, one town. If airfields could be knocked out with more ease, it would pay to sweep enemy airfields and force your adversary to take-off from further away fields...You would not gain terrain but you would gain tactical advantage.

Ok, now some ideas to bring in more people, especially bomber pilots and gv drivers: instead the flimsy 3 ship formations, give them a 12 ship formation. Instead of the lonely tank, give every tanker a full combat column of armour, tanks, aa armoured vehicles and troop carriers.

Now some ideas to scare off people: force pilots to fly 5 bomber missions prior to be able to get a fighter. Make them land it or fly 5 more bomber missions. That would have several major advantages: first, you would have more bombers in the air. Second, the fighters would fly less recklessly. Third, I would like to escort or be escorted by my squad mates if I was in a bomber or in a fighter...

So:
We may keep large maps, then we need more people.
We make maps smaller, fighter oriented, we need different rules.
We go into "experten mode", and everybody goes away...

And what about drafting? What if, to access MA, you had to do 1 ToD in AvA? Err...or should it be the other way around? Gee, now I totally confused myself!

On a more serous note, AvA people is not average MA client...Why not exploit this "difference"? Why not transform AvA in the "Top Gun School" for WW2 air combat? We do not want MA style arena? We make it the thoughest, hardest, the most demanding experience ever created in a WW2 air combat simulation.

Who cares if we're 20? Let's fly 200 miles to pick a fight, lets fly without radar and gps maps when airborne. Let's go "orthodox" and go as near as possible of the real thing. Let's make it so hard that people says: «AvA? Are u crazy? Its full of geeks, just waiting to chew you up!». Lets have night and fog and low cloud.

Hey, why don't we setup a date, day and hour and all registered pilots in AvA meet in one "Big Meeting" every month? Maybe not all all over the world but as many as we could manage to gather up?

That would be nice, let's do it in one Saturday, that would allow some to log in before sunrise, others at noon, others at sunset, others even in the evening. How many would we gather? 100? 200?

Thank you all for supporting AvA.

Sparrow

[Urchin]

I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA.  I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.

[kamilyun]

Originally posted by Urchin
I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA.  I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.

I don' t think the average skill level is higher, but with small numbers, you are far more likely to run into the skilled players (and get shot down )

[E25280]

Originally posted by Urchin
I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA.  I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.

Perhaps not, but if you are a skilled player, you do not have the added bonus of being boths skilled and having a plane that outclasses your target's.  Your opponent is also more focused on you because generally, with fewer players, there is less likelihood of a Cherry Picker coming in unnoticed from 15K feet.  And finally, even a bum like me can occasionally land 5 kills in the MA because I ran into a fleet of Noobs . . . no fleet of noobs in the AvA.  That is, the "average" skill level may not be higher, but there are fewer at the extreme low end.

My take, anyway.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Urchin
I think the reasons the furballers stay in the MA is that the limited planeset is unappealing to a lot, and there is more action in the MA.  I've run into some very good pilots in the AvA, but I still don't really buy the argument that the average skill level is higher in the AvA.

I actually agree with almost all of this.  I think the AVERAGE skill level probably is higher in AvA, as Brauno says.  But this isn't an arena of Top Guns by any means.  Otherwise, despite all the whining about how they just really want a good furball and a good fight, the top MA pilots really want to have their favorite planes and a school of small fish to feed on.

My take, at least.

- oldman

[Platano]

Originally posted by sparow
Who cares if we're 20? Let's fly 200 miles to pick a fight, lets fly without radar and gps maps when airborne. Let's go "orthodox" and go as near as possible of the real thing. Let's make it so hard that people says: «AvA? Are u crazy? Its full of geeks, just waiting to chew you up!». Lets have night and fog and low cloud.

Hey, why don't we setup a date, day and hour and all registered pilots in AvA meet in one "Big Meeting" every month? Maybe not all all over the world but as many as we could manage to gather up?

That would be nice, let's do it in one Saturday, that would allow some to log in before sunrise, others at noon, others at sunset, others even in the evening. How many would we gather? 100? 200?



Sparrow

I like it alot!!!  

wat do yall think ??

staff?

[kamilyun]

I don't like the idea of changing the strat/field/bomber/gv system.  I think that ToD will appeal to those who like tackling big bomber formations and bombing strategic targets.

I DO like the idea of a once a month AvA-athon where everyone gets together and have some wicked missions.  I believe that Filth was doing this for a while.  Basically, all it would take is 5-10 guys in bomber formations, with 5-10 guys in escorts to go fight it out against 15-20 interceptors.

As far as people not flying b/c their favorite plane isn't there...I think there are enough rotations to get all the planes in at some point.  

Finally...I think for late war planes, air spawns are key!  190s and P51s really do best above 20K.  One of the maps may have had this, but I can't remember.  It would be nice if this feature was included in the last stage of every RPS.  (or 10K for midset, then 20K for the last set).

[teeri]

Sparow has made some good points and I like most of his ideas, especially the one about purpose and rewards. I believe that one big motivator in the MA is scoring, although many players say it doesn't matter - a claim I'm very sceptical about. It's the simplest form of rewarding, but at least it's something. Should HTC make AvA statistics too or would it only bring stat padders?

I have a feeling that the new CT is going to replace AvA. That is, IF it will ever be released... It's historical and realistic arena with rewards like medals and promotions. So it should have everything AvA has and more? Or am I missing something?

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by teeri
Sparow has made some good points and I like most of his ideas, especially the one about purpose and rewards. I believe that one big motivator in the MA is scoring, although many players say it doesn't matter - a claim I'm very sceptical about. It's the simplest form of rewarding, but at least it's something. Should HTC make AvA statistics too or would it only bring stat padders?
 

AH already has AvsA statistics / scores same as the MA........they just don't list them on the Homepage in BOLD TEXT each campaign.......