The United States of Europe

[-lynx-]

 

It was Poland where the revolution against communism started. Would the wall come down without "Solidairy" movement ?

Well - it actually started in Hungary in 1956, to be followed by another attempt in Prague in 1968 - both crashed.

Not sure if the wall would come down without Solidarity but it sure as hell would not move anywhere without Mikhail "Forgotten Hero Who Liberated Eastern Europe" Gorbachev.

Not doubting for a second the bravery or dedication of Poles, Chechs and others but without this guy we would quite possibly still have the Warzaw pact...

As for Britain "betraying" Poland before and after the war: to say this is just as shallow as to accuse the Russians in screwing Eastern Europe for 50 years. Politicians make these decisions, not ordinary people. Why can't we grasp this rather simple concept and lay the blaim where it belongs?



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lynx
13 Sqn RAF

[Dowding]

Asmodan - I went to the USSR in 1990 when the country was at its lowest, just before the coup. It's not much of a leap in imagination to assume most of the Eastern Bloc was in a similar (or worse) condition.

I'll say it again, I've never disputed the fact that Polish, Czech, French etc pilots were decisive in the BoB victory. Read my last post again. But why should that decide which countries enter economic union? It is completely irrelevant to the economics of the situation.

I think you all misundertand what I'm getting at in this thread. I was discussing European integration, and specifically economic integration in the form of a single european currency. The issue is really about economics, and I don't think political history comes into it. If we allow Poland into the the Single European Currency because of the deeds of their flyers, then we must exclude Germany by the same token. That would be senseless.

Fd-ski - the fact is that Poland (and other former Eastern Bloc states) are second class compared to the UK, Germany etc IN TERMS OF ECONOMICS. The issue is not who is to blame for that, but how the future can be shaped to allow Poland etc to become a partner in Europe. Surely that is what matters now?

Let me also say that I was not being intentionally disparaging of your country (or of any Eastern European country). I was talking of the future, not the past, because only the future can be changed. I think alot of you read my notes of caution regarding the integration of Eastern European countries as a slur, when in fact I was trying to discuss the hard facts that will determine Europe's future. Rushing into integration will mean disaster, in my opinion (for what that's worth  ).

I realise that sometimes things written on this BB can read the wrong way, especially if English is not the first language of the poster. But your English, guys, is excellent. You can probably speak it better than I can - I come from an area of England called Yorkshire - I have a strong accent and use alot of dialect and slang when I speak.  

<S>

[rfa]

I love you all!  

Yep, the west screwed Poland over that is for sure - but for good reason.  If they stood up to Stalin in 1945, I don't think it would be a pretty picture.  10 T-34s vs 1 Sherman are not good odds.  ...and please, no more "who would have won WWIII" discussions - the point is that it would be a bloodshed.

Poles died becasue of the Commie "occupation", but many more Poles and many others would have died if it came to blows between the soviets and the west in 1945.

Besides, the reds went away after 50 years - they got their punishment (just look at Russia today).  Too bad about the inocent people over there.  

There is little excuse for expecting Poland to pay for the "priviledge" of defending Britain or the harsh treatment Poles received in the later stages of the war and after it (a lot of common people in Britain liked the Soviets).  This is ironic, but one anti-Polish demonstration near London in 1944 was interrupted when a low flying Polish Mustang went zooming overhead in pursuit of a buzz bomb headed for the capitol (not to be outdone by No. 303 Sqn, the Polish Mustang pilots took up 16 spots on the list of the top 20 Mustang diver aces).  The harsh treatement dealt to the Poles was the fault of certain easily influenced people that were alive back then.  The military guys that saw Poles in action hated what their goverment did to them (read "The Forgotten Few" by Zamoyski).  

As for 1939, I guess its just a difference in the way poeple look at things.  True, the French Army and the BEF lasted only slightly longer then the Poles who were fighting two enemies, so I think it is safe to say there was no way for Britain and France to mobilize on September 1st and have any outcome on the Polish campaign.  Still, Poles think that a word is a word, and they try their best to honor it (as foolish as that is).

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As for the EU, give it time.  I am very proud to say Poland is on its way, just like it was after WWI.  Who knows, it soon might be the 15th Century "Hussar" times reborn.  

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S/L rf-a,
No. 308 (Polish) Sqn
Royal Air Force
 



[This message has been edited by rfa (edited 11-03-2000).]

[-lynx-]

I'm prolly missing something but there are loads - and I mean LOADS of people of Polish origin in the UK. Most of them stayed after the war - I used to rent a house from a Pole. I've lived here for 10 years and never come across people who would have anything against Poles. French - sure, but that's another story.
 

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lynx
13 Sqn RAF

[rfa]

Lynx, that is what I mean when I say it was the fault of certain people that were alive back then, not now.  

<S>

[Dowding]

Hindsight is king in these type of discussions.

Show me a country with clean record of tolerance for foreigners (in every sense of the word).