Author Topic: Iraq Casualties Study  (Read 1305 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2006, 02:33:36 PM »
cpxx.... I agree that war...or at least conflict are an integral part of human nature.   I define war as going all the way down to a barroom brawl tho.

neubob... You are correct... I am full of crap.   It is all relative tho.

lazs

Offline indy007

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« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2006, 03:15:48 PM »
Historically, large populations & scarce resources are the trigger for war. "Where goods do not cross frontiers, armies will." -Bastiat, 19th century

In the 1960s New Guinea had a very high state of between-group violence. Colonial powers imposed peace, and ensured it by loading them up with goods & supplies. 1 generation later they were using computers, flying planes, & established small businesses. Between-group violence hit an all time low.

Same thing with the Yanomamo. Missionaries, and then the Venezuelan gov, gave food & tools for agriculture. Even without outside intervention they setup labor divisions across villages. Specific crafts could be made in all villages, but weren't so they purposely could create interdependant trade. This caused internal warfare to drop off considerably.

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: Iraq Casualties Study
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2006, 03:24:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Was searching for some data and came across a interesting site.  I share with mongo:

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Many many good men and women are being wounded and killed in Iraq, is this just an opening operation into the great war about to engulf civilization, or is this the war that prevents it?

It is either one or the other. [/B]


Saddam's nuclear program would have started again as soon as he got a chance.Saddam was a genocidal dictator who had snuffed out human freedom in Iraq and has tortured and executed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and. Personally, I think this reason alone is the only reason I need to support it. I support a war against people like this any time, for any reason.

Saddam won't even keep his tyranny at home, but was a threat to all his neighbors, including:
(A) half the world's oil supply, and:
(B) the democracy of Israel.

The US needs to change the Middle East, and Iraq is a good place to start. It's a perfectly good reason to invade IMO.
 
The US needed to take the war home to the Middle East instead of them coming here, killing civilians in the US via trains, planes, shopping malls, etc.  The Islamic extremists are now forced to take on heavily-armed US soldiers in their own countries. If there has to be a war, this is where the war belongs, not in America. Islamic extremists are dying in huge numbers, while achieving nothing so far at least.

Sleep safe tonight, there are brave men fighting over there who know this is a necessary war for the safety of the USA and its national interests.

Offline Neubob

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Re: Re: Iraq Casualties Study
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2006, 03:46:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Islamic extremists are dying in huge numbers, while achieving nothing so far at least.  


They're doing plenty. By dying, they spawning more of their own ilk.

Bin Laden played us like a harmonica. He didn't attack New York to 'Break America's back', he attacked it because he knew full well that our response would polarize the world into two camps. He knew that it would start this bull**** holy war of West verses Islam, and in doing so, would bring untold attention his way and untold negative press our way.

Once again, Bin Laden is NOT an Islamic fundamentalist. His employees sure are, because they're willing to die for him, but, thus far at least, he hasn't given his life for the cause. He's nothing more than a socio-pathic attention potato who doesn't care who dies in the process of his rise to world fame, his people or those of the enemy, it's all the same to him.

Call me a racist if you want, but those dirtballs we're trying to civilize aren't worth a single American life, and if it's our goal to stop funamentalism, we have to stop feeding the flames. Stop giving them untold billions in oil money, stop turning them into martyrs, stop giving them a reason to chant their idiotic caveman chants as they slice the head off another hostage.

Just like you stop paying attention to a kid who's screaming and yelling for you to buy him yet another toy, we have to back away from that catastrophe, now and forever. Once their ideological temper tantrums are all used up, then, maybe there can be talks of change. As it stands, they are not ready, nor particularly receptive to what we're selling.  

And frankly, if their economies dry up, if they sink deeper into poverty, if their infant mortality rates shoot throughthe roof, if disease runs rampant, so be it. It's all happening in Africa as we speak, and yet, amazingly, we're not plagued by Somolian terrorist attacks on our homeland. The difference is that we're not funding their entire civilization, as we are with Islam. Religion is just an excuse to rally the troops, and I'm sick of hearing about how we're making the world safer. Personally, I'd rather be out drinking beers and acting stupid with our servicemen than watching them risking their lives for that pit of primordial ooze.

If you value their lives so much, value them enough to let them live to be old. And yes, a big <> to them all.

Jesus Christ, I'm starting to sound like a ****ing Democrat...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 03:50:27 PM by Neubob »

Offline Hap

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« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2006, 03:55:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dos Equis
This isn't a war about religion


On ours it isn't.  On their's it is.

hap

Offline Debonair

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Re: Re: Re: Iraq Casualties Study
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2006, 05:23:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
They're doing plenty. By dying, they spawning more of their own ilk....


The DoD need spawn campers!!!!:O :O :furious :furious :rofl :rofl :cool: :D

Offline Maverick

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Re: Re: Re: Iraq Casualties Study
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2006, 05:44:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
They're doing plenty. By dying, they spawning more of their own ilk.

Bin Laden played us like a harmonica. He didn't attack New York to 'Break America's back', he attacked it because he knew full well that our response would polarize the world into two camps. He knew that it would start this bull**** holy war of West verses Islam, and in doing so, would bring untold attention his way and untold negative press our way.

Once again, Bin Laden is NOT an Islamic fundamentalist. His employees sure are, because they're willing to die for him, but, thus far at least, he hasn't given his life for the cause. He's nothing more than a socio-pathic attention potato who doesn't care who dies in the process of his rise to world fame, his people or those of the enemy, it's all the same to him.

Call me a racist if you want, but those dirtballs we're trying to civilize aren't worth a single American life, and if it's our goal to stop funamentalism, we have to stop feeding the flames. Stop giving them untold billions in oil money, stop turning them into martyrs, stop giving them a reason to chant their idiotic caveman chants as they slice the head off another hostage.

Just like you stop paying attention to a kid who's screaming and yelling for you to buy him yet another toy, we have to back away from that catastrophe, now and forever. Once their ideological temper tantrums are all used up, then, maybe there can be talks of change. As it stands, they are not ready, nor particularly receptive to what we're selling.  

And frankly, if their economies dry up, if they sink deeper into poverty, if their infant mortality rates shoot throughthe roof, if disease runs rampant, so be it. It's all happening in Africa as we speak, and yet, amazingly, we're not plagued by Somolian terrorist attacks on our homeland. The difference is that we're not funding their entire civilization, as we are with Islam. Religion is just an excuse to rally the troops, and I'm sick of hearing about how we're making the world safer. Personally, I'd rather be out drinking beers and acting stupid with our servicemen than watching them risking their lives for that pit of primordial ooze.

If you value their lives so much, value them enough to let them live to be old. And yes, a big <> to them all.

Jesus Christ, I'm starting to sound like a ****ing Democrat...



In short your solution is to ignore them to victory. In addition ignore the oil they sit on. Yeah right that will work. :rolleyes:

Assuming you have even a slight infinitesmal percentage of being correct, what is to stop them from just going to Europe and America and blowing stuff up to regain the attention you are denying them by ignoring them to death?
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Offline Neubob

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Iraq Casualties Study
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2006, 06:34:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
In short your solution is to ignore them to victory. In addition ignore the oil they sit on. Yeah right that will work. :rolleyes:

Assuming you have even a slight infinitesmal percentage of being correct, what is to stop them from just going to Europe and America and blowing stuff up to regain the attention you are denying them by ignoring them to death?


No, my solution isn't to simply ignore them, it's to leave them for dead, on the side of the road.

How much have we invested in the war? Take that sum and use it to discover oil elsewhere. Build a pipeline across to Siberia, make a deal with the Russians, drill in the middle of the ocean, drill in antarctica, grow corn and produce more ethanol, invest in new technologies, do ANYTHING but send it to the middle east. No more Saudis, no more Kuwaitis, no more Iraqis. We'll never impose out ideology on them, and it's foolish to even pretend we're trying to do so. They don't want it, and we can't afford it.

No more investement, not monetary, not social, not military. Not a penny of aid. Let them stone each other to death for the next hundred years, if that's what they want.

Our tax dollars should be going into developing and perfecting THIS society, not bringing theirs, any of theirs, out of the dark ages.

And as for coming back and bombing us here, well, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. I'm all for air strike and assassinations, if the intel's good and if we're not doing it under the guise of nation-building. Ultimately, it's less involvement, not more, that'll end their ambitions. Right now, we're only fueling their resolve.

Quit sustaining them. Let them die their own death.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2006, 07:47:02 PM »
So you intend to ignore them to death. If it were simply down to only 2 sides and you could guarantee that the offensive nation could not gain any trade at all, it may work if they were also dependent for any and all necessities of life. Unfortunately I have no doubt you'd see something that has happened already. Oil for food, and the scandal of other nations lining their pockets violating the agreement.

It is not a sterile environment and you cannot control the situation to make your solution viable.

Waiting for the oposition to get here just gets you another WTC, with no one to hold directly accountable.

In short, it would be nice if your idea could work but it cannot and is far from realistic.
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Offline Neubob

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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2006, 09:11:26 PM »
Look dude, my point is this, and I came to it only after spending a very long time supporting the war effort, supporting the cause, supporting the active struggle against this plague on humanity:

We're playing into their hand when we go to fight. Bin Laden is sitting somewhere, right now, scratching his bearded scankiness, and smiling at how things are going. Of this I am sure. Therefore, the only logical solution would be to do the opposite of what we have been doing. Instead of trying to remake them into something we hold dear, we need to let them go. It may take a year, a decade, a number of decades, but it is we who are empowering them. It is not Allah, or Bin Laden, or images of the deposed Saddam. We created the modern middle east, with our money, with our weapons, even with our concern for their own plight.

Those who manipulate the masses understand this game, and they continue to play us every passing day. And it pains me, to no end, to think of what could have been done with those Billions we've spent on the war. How many of those service men could have been granted college educations, how many engineers we could have created, and yes, how many thus undiscovered oil fields and technologies we could have tapped.

It's gotten to the point where every time I fill up my gas-guzzling truck, I think that I'm feeding those apes, ensuring their future, putting our own youth, who went their because it was their job, at risk.

Yes, the stuff I said is unrealistic. There was no winning after 9/11 because either reaction would have been villified, somehow, somewhere, by somebody. Personally, I like Dos Equis's idea about taking over their oil fields and letting their cities crumble into anarchy, but this would require, again, an investment of time, money and human life, and I'm getting sick and tired of hearing about 'our boys' being hurt and killed by that bearded scum.

You know, I hear this time and time again, and it's really starting to hit home... I was watching an interview with a young soldier in Iraq who spoke of the commonness of the 'uncommon valor'. He said that the opposite of fear is not courage, but love. Those guys are out there, fighting not for the Iraqis, but for each other, for their LIVES. When they storm a building, it's not in the name of GWB or the stars and stripes, or gas prices, it's so that the human vermin they kill today won't live till tomorrow to kill one of them. They're fighting for their lives, each and every day, they're scared, they're frustrated and they're pissed. There's just too much work to be done here to be losing the cream of our youth over there, to say nothing of the money we're wasting on a society that could only benefit the world by ceasing to exist.

Yes, it's unrealistic, but, at the same time, it was also pretty awful to act as predictably as we did. They hit us, we hit them, all the while, we're still paying out the bellybutton for their damned oil, and that money, by one means or another, IS ending up in the pocket of the enemy.

Offline EagleEyes

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2006, 01:45:03 AM »
To me, this War on Terrorism started long before i was alive.  Im 19 years old and have seen terrorism since i was little.  Wheather it was bombings of US Embassy's in Africa, or Suicide attacks in Isreal.  It has something that i have seen on television since i was little.  Let us not forget what happened in Somalia in 1993 "Blackhawk Down".  It was proven that Al-Qeada was behind that day in American history.  Its rather sick that we as Americans didnt open our eyes until thousands of Americans died in one day "Sept 11th".  Something else that sickens me is how fast people have seem to have forgoten about Sept 11th.  Those months after 9/11, EVERYONE called themselves AMERICANS.  There were no Republicans, Democrates, Whites, Blacks, Christian, Jews.  We were AMERICANS.  And now, it seems as if we have gone back to pre 9/11 times.  Wheather we should have attacked Iraq or not is now irrelavent.  We are there, and we have stopped many terrorist attacks on our homeland.  I cant say this about a lot of people my age.  But if there ever was a draft, id be there ready to fight.  Think of the millions of Americans who have died so we can live with Freedom.  We cant just sit here and let Terrorist and rogue nations attack us.  We need to stand up and fight like we have since 1776.  We are Americans and we need to defend our freedom.  Personally, id be more then willing to give my life so that my  children in the future can live in peace and have the freedoms i do today.  Dont get me wrong, its not that i WANT to die, but if it came down to it being either me or my friend, id want it to be me.  


God bless the US and our President!!


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Offline Neubob

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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2006, 02:05:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by EagleEyes
 Dont get me wrong, its not that i WANT to die, but if it came down to it being either me or my friend, id want it to be me.  


God bless the US and our President!!


<>
Jordon


Your gallant sacrifice is exactly what they want, and, frankly, it is a price I do not want to pay, nor do your parents, or your friends.

Don't get ME wrong, when all this happened, five years ago, I was just about your age, and I shared your enthusiasm wholeheartedly. The moment you pick up your rifle and face them in the field of battle, they've already won.

This is a battle of intellect, not muzzle-velocity. We need to rob them of their ideological fuel, because for every one we kill, we only help to give rise to a generation of hell-bent enemies.

Victory, if it comes, will be slow and quiet, and nobody wil notice.

Failure, on the other hand,  will be heralded by the sounds of our bombs and shells dropping into their villages and cities. This war will never end, until we change the rules of engagement.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 02:10:13 AM by Neubob »

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2006, 06:19:06 AM »
Quote
We're playing into their hand when we go to fight. Bin Laden is sitting somewhere, right now, scratching his bearded scankiness, and smiling at how things are going. Of this I am sure. Therefore, the only logical solution would be to do the opposite of what we have been doing. Instead of trying to remake them into something we hold dear, we need to let them go. It may take a year, a decade, a number of decades, but it is we who are empowering them. It is not Allah, or Bin Laden, or images of the deposed Saddam. We created the modern middle east, with our money, with our weapons, even with our concern for their own plight.


That's all true. But we can't ignore them because they've got so much oil. About 30% of world oil production comes from the ME. About 40% of world oil exports. As a percentage, it's growing, whilst Europe and North America's oil production is declining.

They've got 62% of the world oil reserves.

Barring some really major technological breakthrough, the west can't ignore the ME.

Offline babek-

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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2006, 07:43:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dos Equis
I(...) The reason that Iraq and Iran are disenfranchised members of the world community is because they made all the wrong choices. They overthrew the Shah in the late 1970s and preferred to revert to the dark ages. They could have been like India is now. India has 83,000 millionaires living there. They are taking jobs from Microsoft, Dell and Cisco and putting them there. That could have been Iran. (...)


Dont mix the arab Iraq with the non-arab Iran. They are not only from different race but the history of their nations alos differ extremely. Iran exists for 2500 years while Iraq was created as an artficial building from the dead corpse of the Osman Empire after WW1. Thats one of the reasons of today problems in iraq because by creating this thing three different groupes were forced to live as one nation - shi ite arabs, sunnite arabs and kurds.

But back to Iran and the overthrow of the Shah.

After WW1 - when Irans neutrality was ignored by the Allies and Axis Forces - the Kadjar dynasty was overthown by the Pahlevi dynasty. The Shah Reza Khan wanted to modernize Iran. He was strong and charismatic like the great Ataturk of Turkey.

In WW2 Iran refused to side with the Allies and also refused to declare War against the German Reich.
So agin the neutrality of Iran was ignored and the country was occupied by soviet and british forces. The Shah was deposed, his son was installed and Iran joined the allies and declared war against Germany.

Then after WW1 a new nation became the friend of the Iranians: The USA. They helped us to destroy the kurdish rebel republic on iranian territory and in this time the USA and the ideas from that country were very attractive for iranians.

The iranians wanted to become a democracy and this dream seemed to become true, when in the 50ties the prime minister of Iran, Dr. Mossadegh, deposed the Shah in an unbloody revolution.

But then the US- and british secret service started Operation Ajax, deposed Mossadegh and re-installed the Shah.

The Shah feared another revolution and so - with the help of the CIA - his secret police, the SAVAK became a Gestapo-like terror instrument.

You wrote "They overthrew the Shah in the late 1970s and preferred to revert to the dark ages."

No - Mr. They were desperate because it was a time of terror. Year by year tenthousands of iranians were killed or tortured by the SAVAK. The people wanted this terror to end. They didnt wanted the dark ages.
The got them, because in their desperation to kick out the terrorregime of the Shah and all what he symbolized they thought that a religious leader like Khomeine would bring a better Iran.

That was wrong. But to say "They decided to go back to the dark ages" is quite unfair, when you ignore the real reasons for the bloody revolution in Iran.