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Author Topic: So much for the first amendment  (Read 1168 times)

Offline Sandman

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2006, 09:37:13 PM »
Yeah... did you read this part?

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Superintendent Carlos Garcia warned board members their refusal to implement a ban jeopardized $70 million in federal funding, including money subsidizing the district's free and reduced lunch program.
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Offline Tarmac

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2006, 09:38:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
When a preacher stands on the courthouse steps and preaches to a gathering, should that be disallowed because he is using public facilities for a sermon?

Perhaps a more tolerant society would allow for someone to speak their personal religious view, even in a public forum.


Holy straw man.  A preacher can preach on the steps all he wants; this girl can speak on the steps of the school all she wants about whatever she wants.  When she is invited to speak at an official school function, but tells them beforehand she's going to speak in a way inconsistent with policy, they have all the right in the world to un-invite her.  It's not about religion at all.  

If she had turned in a draft speech entitled "Why I wouldn't cry if everyone in this school were to die from AIDS tomorrow," would you expect the principal to allow her to speak at a school sponsored event?  She made it known that she was going to give a speech that the school could not endorse due to its policy, so the school also did not endorse her as being a representative of the school at commencement.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2006, 09:44:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
When she is invited to speak at an official school function, but tells them beforehand she's going to speak in a way inconsistent with policy, they have all the right in the world to un-invite her.  It's not about religion at all.


You think they would have shut off the microphone had she strayed from the governmentally approved speech and talked of who made the best hamburger in Vegas?Of course it's about religion.  

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Officials and a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union said on June 16 that administrators followed federal law when they cut the microphone on Foothill High School valedictorian Brittany McComb as she began deviating from a preapproved speech and reading from a version that mentioned God and contained biblical references.


Of course it's about religion.
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Offline ASTAC

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2006, 09:44:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
The ACLU didn't make the policy.


AND NEITHER DID OUR ORIGINAL FOUNDING GOVERNMENT
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That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety

Offline Tarmac

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2006, 09:48:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You think they would have shut off the microphone had she strayed from the governmentally approved speech and talked of who made the best hamburger in Vegas?Of course it's about religion.  


Only if they had a policy stating that the school would not endorse a one hamburger chain over another.  

If she had made any speech that violated any of the school's policies, they should have shut her off.  In this case religion only matters because the school has a policy on it.
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Offline Sandman

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2006, 09:51:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ASTAC
AND NEITHER DID OUR ORIGINAL FOUNDING GOVERNMENT


So what?
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Offline Holden McGroin

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2006, 09:51:32 PM »
Ok Tarmac... I'll put you down as in favor of free speech unless it conflicts with government policy.
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Offline Tarmac

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2006, 09:53:18 PM »
If that's where you want to set up "my" straw man, go for it.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2006, 09:56:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
Only if they had a policy stating that the school would not endorse a one hamburger chain over another.  

If she had made any speech that violated any of the school's policies, they should have shut her off.  In this case religion only matters because the school has a policy on it.


You don't see what you said?
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Offline Tarmac

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2006, 09:59:35 PM »
Of course I do.  I wrote it.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2006, 10:01:58 PM »
So apparently "your straw man" has a little meat on his bones...
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Offline Tarmac

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2006, 10:10:11 PM »
I don't get your metaphor.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2006, 10:18:52 PM »
1. Girl strays from approved script.

2. Stray violates school policy.

3. Policy written to protect seperation of Church and State.

4. Tarmac OK with this, says nothing to do with religion.

5. If policy barred hamburger comparison, Tarmac OK with that.

6. Holden notes Tarmac OK with government limiting free speech if speech violates government policy.

7. Tarmac says if Holden wants to set up Tarmac's straw man there, OK

8. Holden makes metaphor regarding the consistancy of Tarmac's straw man, saying perhaps the argument is of more substance than just straw.
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Offline Tarmac

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So much for the first amendment
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2006, 10:45:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
6. Holden notes Tarmac OK with government limiting free speech if speech violates government policy.


Ok, got your metaphor now.  The straw man still stands, as your point #6... I'm contending that this is not an issue of free speech because the girl is free to speak her mind as a private citizen, just not as a representative of the public school... which she is, since she was invited to speak at a government sponsored event with the implication that she represents the institution.      

Are you ever going to make a point, or just sit back and snipe those that do?  You're arguing like a Democrat... telling the opposition they're wrong, but never even asserting your supposedly better alternative.

And with that, I'm done.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2006, 11:14:54 PM »
Tarmac, since your gone and do not wish to discuss further, just for the record I'll just quote myself apparently not suggesting an alternative.

Quote
posted by Holden McGroin about 20 posts up
Perhaps a more tolerant society would allow for someone to speak their personal religious view, even in a public forum.


My alternative is to allow a valedictorian to speak as she wished and charge those who listen to tolerate views that may not be their own.
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