A quick survey on Patriotism

[Hangtime]

The enemy is big government and socialism. No patriot to himself and man would allow them to flourish.

"Unrelenting support of a government would give it a licence to do whatever it liked."

Seems that the only way to revolt is to do so by pooling public opinion. Thankfully, we still live in a place where it's legal to call the president an *******. Enough people doing that, coupled with some well-placed ad campaigns and perhaps in idiotically skewed propaganda film by a rich yet poorly-attired fat man, will lead to, well, a second term for said *******, but, after that term's over, we're in business...

You wanna see a change?

Cut the money off.

Tax Strike.

The law sez yah have to file.. so file. No law sez yah have to pay.

Don't pay. Put the money in escrow. pay up when they show yah the law that sez YOU have to pay for the corporate monkey shines.

[lazs2]

yep hang... gotta cut the money and the power off but.... You don't want to be a martyr.    Martyrs get..... crucified.

A lawful tax revolt would be to simply stop playing the game... stop being duped... don't vote for new laws (except as kurt points out... those that increase freedom) and don't vote for new taxes.

new school taxes make for richer and more powerful public schools that make for dumber kids.

If you vote for a special tax to fix roads then they use the regular road fees for something else...

If you vote to save social securtity then they give more of the social security fees away.

you vote for helmet and seatbelt laws and the insurance companies just make more money and the government has an excuse to build it's police force.

You vote to restrict the other guy and they can then concentrate on getting your life restricted.

We pay too much tax right now.   make em use it smarter.   Make em shrink the government.

That is the real answer.

I would very much like to hear how nash and the other socialists (your-0-peeeans) think about this.

lazs

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
I would very much like to hear how nash and the other socialists (your-0-peeeans) think about this.

lazs

Well Lazs, I don't disagree with any of what you said about taxes. The problem is not that Government is receiving too little money in order to provide services and enact reforms, but that Government itself is guilty of gross ineptitude. At least that's how I feel about the current government in Britain, which seems to tally with what other people are saying in this thread about the situation in the US. As you know, I could probably afford a bigger and thirstier car, plus other extravagances. But I forego these luxuries because I know that the whole package would be costing me a lot more in terms of tax. And I feel that with the current government, I might as well take wads of �50 notes and flush them down the toilet for all the good it would do anyone were the government to get its hands on the money.

HangTime's idea is not without merit - a Tax Strike! It could well come to just that, assuming that Britain is the canary in the coalmine for what is about to happen in the USA. Already, several elderly pensioners have gone to jail in protest at swingeing increases in council tax - a tax which is supposed to pay for things like education, police, street cleaning etc. But many are feeling badly let down. Just this week, another pensioner went to jail for nonpayment of tax. Read about it here. It is patently obvious that this woman is no common criminal, but a great humanitarian and pillar within her community.

[Hangtime]

It's not my idea. Toad implanted it in my brain in another thread a month or so ago. I've  been swimming upstream, checking out the concept ever since. And, I gotta say; my immediate reaction was the same as laz's.

Now, I'm not so sure.

I think all we need is a leader... rather than just a few of us on tax strike; it's gonna take most of us on a tax strike. To get there it's gonna take a charismatic leader; somebody that can galvanize the dissent for the runaway deficit, corruption and erosion of rights..

We need a Modern Boston Tea Party.

[TexMurphy]

An american who says he doesnt support bush is more of a patriot then an american who says he supports bush because he (the american) is a patriot.

Tex

[lukster]

A revolution needn't be quick and violent. I believe the surest way to divert us from the path to socialism and loss of indiviual liberty is school vouchers. Who will argue that the future of our nation lives in the hearts and minds of our youth?

[68Hawk]

I believe option 2 is true patriotism.  The first thing described at the begining of this thread is blatant Nationalism, and should only be confused with patriotism at a nation's peril.

Far too many people now adays fail to make the destinction.  The government is the most eager to lead people astray like this, making it seem that if you are not an entusiastic follower that you are not a patriot, or are even worse a traitor.  Nationalism leads quickly to fascism, and other forms of despotism, and I fear that this country is quickly sinking into that trap.  

If you havn't read it already, check this out and see what you think for yourself.  
http://ellensplace.net/fascism.html
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

True patriots won't be afraid to give it a shot.  

True patriots can question their own country in the hopes of rectifying faults.

True patriots fail to settle for something that's good when they know that something better is out there.  

True patriots have the courage to question their country, their government and themselves.

True patriots are not so cowardly as to go along with a government agenda that is absent of justification or moral credibility.  

............................. .......
Following one political party or another, unflinchingly and unquestioningly, is even more dangerous than Nationalism.  It is an internal form of Nationalism, and partisan politics will be what finally tears the fabric of America.

[68Hawk]

And on the note of school vouchers.......

These are but a scheme to pick apart the public school system, which is already in enough trouble as it is.  Won't help anything, and will only send my tax dollars to parochial schools.  

How is that fighting socialism?

Big government is bad, but socialism and the left in general do still have things they can offer.

Never forget that the right, left and even the center (where liberalism truly resides) all have something good to offer to political discourse, as do they all have falling points.  Just because something is left or right, doesn't necessarily mean it is bad.

And for the record, liberalism is not the left.  Liberalism is the center of the classical political spectrum (which is extremely out dated anyway).  There is no true left to American politics, at least not one that gets any attention.  If there were, maybe we would have more balanced discourse in this country, and maybe we'd have better options that two parties who are beholden to the same interests anyway.  Centrists representing themselves as leftists only do us all a disservice.  

Vote independent!!!!  Both parties want to enslave you!!!

[Debonair]

i only like me
patriotism is for suckers

[WhiteHawk]

a true patriot is the one who is always ready to take up arms against his own govt.

[-dead-]

Patriotism is by definition an irrational, mindless persuit: there's no more rational choice involved in which is your country of origin than what your natural hair colour is.
The only criteria is assuming that whichever country you were born in is the best country in thee world. Which smacks of egotism.

[lukster]

Originally posted by 68Hawk
And on the note of school vouchers.......

These are but a scheme to pick apart the public school system, which is already in enough trouble as it is.  Won't help anything, and will only send my tax dollars to parochial schools.  

How is that fighting socialism?

Big government is bad, but socialism and the left in general do still have things they can offer.

Never forget that the right, left and even the center (where liberalism truly resides) all have something good to offer to political discourse, as do they all have falling points.  Just because something is left or right, doesn't necessarily mean it is bad.

And for the record, liberalism is not the left.  Liberalism is the center of the classical political spectrum (which is extremely out dated anyway).  There is no true left to American politics, at least not one that gets any attention.  If there were, maybe we would have more balanced discourse in this country, and maybe we'd have better options that two parties who are beholden to the same interests anyway.  Centrists representing themselves as leftists only do us all a disservice.  

Vote independent!!!!  Both parties want to enslave you!!!

The public school system is socialism at it's worst. It is dying a painful and lingering death while taking us with it. Let's put it out of it's misery.

Today's self proclaimed liberals are more socialists than anything else.

If dissent is true patriotism then I was very patriotic when Wild Bill was at the wheel.

[68Hawk]

Today's liberals are no socialists.  If they were they'd be able to make up their damn minds and stick to something hard.  They're main problem is they are trying to float both ways, or waffle as I think some have termed it.  

The public school system is one of the best things that ever happened to this country.  It's why Americans became so much better educated than the rest of the world.  But it's been neglected, malfunded and relegated to the beaurocratic stupidity of so many other government departments.  Giving all our kids an education isn't really socialism, its good common sense, and also good for business if you think about it in capitalistic terms.  

On the subject of Billy..........
Props to you for being a patriot.  Clinton (which one??? I don't care) is just as bad as both Bush's have been for this country.  They are all in it together.  One big piece that the liberals have played in this big chess game is getting weapons bans approved, making what WhiteHawk said all the more important.  

Again I urge you to vote independent, because liberal or conservative, both parties are controlled, and voting for them is wanting to be controlled by them.  Clintons, Bushs, Kennedys, all of them can go stuff it.  It's time to stand up for America again, getting back to what true patriotism is about.

[Nash]

Cool...

The verbal equivalent of barf.

[lazs2]

68... interesting views you have...

Not well thought out or correct... but interesting.

You would have been correct that the public school system was the best thing our government had done if you would have been speaking of public schools a century ago.

the American revolution was the best thing for the world 2 centuries ago...

Both have something in common... absolute power corrupts absolutely... Our public schools have turned into propoganda socialist experiments.  Our government has grown to a tyranny of the individual.

Vouchers are a "scheme" to destroy public schools (as they exist today)

That is a very good thing... the bloated liberal socialist public school system needs to die and something more along the lines of education put in it's place... every decade they do less with a doubling of the money thrown at them... they are the exact defenition of liberal socialism.

Socialism started in the FDR 30's and was reinforced by LBJ and "the great society"  

We are so far gone down the path of liberal socialism that people like you don't even recognize socialism anymore.

As for what they have to offer... little or nothing for me thank you.

What independent would you vote for?  most are so far left that they would gag marx.

Some are one idea platforms... commune with nature or smoke pot are their only concerns...  Libertarian?  they are wussie eggheads who wouldn't fight if you rubbed their faces in dog doo.

lazs