Author Topic: Repub states "A free press undermines our country"  (Read 3010 times)

Offline Dos Equis

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« on: June 28, 2006, 03:14:01 PM »
GOP states today that a free press, one that is free of state censorship - is harming us as Americans and that only they know best on how to keep us safe from harm:

http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=governmentFilingsNews&storyID=2006-06-28T175249Z_01_N28365526_RTRIDST_0_SECURITY-SWIFT-MEDIA.XML

Offline Sandman

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 03:32:30 PM »
Hastert is an idiot.
sand

Offline Dos Equis

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2006, 03:46:08 PM »
They are asking that the NYT be stripped of press credentials to the white house.

They are also trying to introduce a censure in the house. A censure. Of a newspaper.

In 1999, Congress voted to censure a research scientist.
Source: http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/00-016_congressional_censure.htm

His findings, which were that not every child who was sexually abused as a child grew up to have psychological issues - was considered a 'repulsive finding' and it was felt it would encourage pedophiles. They voted 355 to 0 on that.

But never has Congress censured an American newspaper for a story. Ever. Not even during the civil war. At least I cannot find in the Congressional Record any such instance.

The censure is a tool for Congress to use against the executive branch for misdeeds. It was not intended to rebuke a free press.

Somebody leaked that information to the NYT. They printed it. Sorta like.... oh say, Watergate. So who is Bush's Howard Hunt? Well, should we let the Justice Department march into the NYT and confiscate records to find out? Or allow Congress to censure the Times for this?

Maybe the American people should know that their bank records are being data mined for transactional patterns. Without consent. I don't think knowing it is happening is a bad thing. Since when did the terrorists not know this? Were they off using their Discover cards to buy reams and reams of pool cleaner and not suspecting anyone would get wise?

A formal congressional censure of the NYT would be unprecedented. Leaks are part of Washington, and killing the messenger just puts us in the same league as Iran.

Offline Bruno

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2006, 03:48:01 PM »
Why do they need a 'resolution' for every damn thing..?

If they don't like the NY Times just revoke their press passes and refuse any interaction with them and their parent company.

That said I don't think the press has the 'right' or 'obligation' to report everything it happens upon especially if the information is 'classified'. Freedom of the press doesn't mean freedom from responsibility.

Offline midnight Target

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2006, 03:49:53 PM »
Does anyone honestly think it was news to the terrorists that we were watching their money?

LOL

Offline Hap

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2006, 04:23:00 PM »
I recollect the '64 election as a child.  Goldwater wasn't as scary as what I''m hearing and seeing now.

The fear with Barry was that he'd nuke the Russians.  The fear now is that the executive branch is seeking a coup de grace over constitutional rule.

hap

storch

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2006, 04:27:57 PM »
if the executive branch does in fact "take over the government" it will be because the soccer moms have allowed it to happen while their emasculated husbands play "fantasy football".  I don't think it will ever happen so drastically as that. we will lose our freedoms the same way you boil a live frog.  hopefully I'll never live to see it.

Offline Hap

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2006, 04:37:41 PM »
For those young enough not to recollect, read the 1964 Republican Platform and notice the GREAT difference in ideas between then and what passes for republicianism these days.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/showplatforms.php?platindex=R1964

It is worth talking about.  The differences are notable and worth noting and discussing.  Also, don't take what I've said here and recommended as my approval of the Democratic Party.  It isn't.

Again, take some time, esp staunch Republicans under 35 or there abouts, to see what a traditional republican looked like in 1964.  Also, a 60 year old in 64 was 36 in 1940.  He was 20 in 1924.  These guys were thoughtful Americans who took seriously the fundamental differences in the American system of government compared to the belligerents in WW1 and 2 and also our allies.

hap

Offline Goomba

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2006, 04:45:16 PM »
According to this article, there is no such statement as the one you interpreted...

Quote
GOP states today that a free press, one that is free of state censorship - is harming us as Americans and that only they know best on how to keep us safe from harm


That's simply not what was said...it's a politically charged, convenient twisting of words.

Also, as to the data mining arguement...when did you agree to let credit bureaus mine and archive your personal financial data?  When did you sign on to let them make thier own value judgement of you as a credit risk, then share that opinion with others, possibly to your detriment?  Where are the laws governing such behavior?  Where is the regulatory oversight?  What is a person's recourse when there are conflicts or error, other than going to the source of the mistake and hoping they'll agree with you?  None whatsoever...but that's OK.

The fact is that financial transactions are monitored by all kinds of entities at all times.  The bank that issued your credit card, the store where you used it, the third-party marketing firm that's hired to evaluate and profile the buying demographic...not to mention almost every web page you'll ever visit.

The point Hastert and other are actually trying to make is that the idea of freedom of the press is not childishly simple, and there are expectations of responsibility associated with it.  A newspaper CAN actually print a harmful, irresponsible article.  What's the difficulty in accepting that?

The same idea has been hashed over concerning freedom of speech...not everything qualifies.  And not all speech is responsible speech, else we would not have things like slander and hate-speech laws.  We have a right to freedom of assembly too, but try doing it without a permit in NYC and see what happens.  Where's the moral outrage there?

The right to free press, or free speech, or assembly do not trump the rights of another to be safe, secure and free from persecution.  

Free speech does not mean a right to incite riot.

Would a person feel just as wronged if the story detailed where American troops were stationed, what patrols and routes were planned for the day, what level of armament they had and who their informers were?  That way, we could all be properly informed...we're entitled to know, after all, right?

What if it was your brother/son/dad/mom they outed that day, so the terrorist could have an easier time of killing them?

It feels better to be bubbling over with righteous indignation at the politcal outrage some choose to perceive, but I don't think it's a well thought out position to take.

Journalistic recklessness and fallibility are very real things...not everything known should be shouted from the rooftops, and never forget that our free press is a business...a business that needs to make money - first and foremost.

This was just wrong, and good people will pay the price for a stupid demonstration of "see what I can do and you can't stop me".  This kind of behavior is more dangerous to a free press, because it casts the spotlight on the press' inability to make intelligent decisions about it's bylines, thereby inviting controls we don't want.

Maybe the jihadists are all over this, maybe not.  Those who hunt these animals seem to feel quite strongly that we've lost an important tool.  

No, I most certainly do not support curtailing freedom of the press, but I absolutely demand a very high level of intelligence and responsibility, and an understanding of consequences and who they will befall.

NYT screwed the pooch, IMO.

BTW...as usual, my use of 'you' and 'your' is intended to be generic.

Offline lasersailor184

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2006, 04:46:39 PM »
The problem here is that everyone is confusing Republicans and Democrats with Congressmen.  


It'll be a cold day in hell when any Congressmen acts like a true Republican or Democrat.
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8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline LePaul

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 04:52:52 PM »
LOL Word.

Im beyond ticked that the NY Times, again and again, feels they have the ultimite authority...not the government....to expose and defeat anti-terrorism methods we are using.

These were the same papers that insisted we do as the 9/11 Commission suggested we do.  We do them, and the press crucifies our efforts.

Offline Hangtime

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 05:35:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
if the executive branch does in fact "take over the government" it will be because the soccer moms have allowed it to happen while their emasculated husbands play "fantasy football".  I don't think it will ever happen so drastically as that. we will lose our freedoms the same way you boil a live frog. hopefully I'll never live to see it.


Hopefully, my kids and grandkids will never live to see it.

It's truly up to US.. this generation. Either we head this crap off at the pass or we will go down in history as the 'generation that failed to remain vigilant and brought about the demise of constitutional law and representitive democracy in America'

It's my watch. I helped vote the bush leauge into power.. it's my monkey. The kids could care less.. they pay zero attention to politics.. pretty much like i did at their age. the older I get, the more this stuff gets to me.

We did this. US. we gotta fix it. Tax Strike, petitions. Letter writing. gawdammit, guns if thats what it takes... but we can't let it happen. This administration, this congress has to learn they cannot mess up our legacy and the legacy of our ancestors. We owe it to ourselves, our kids and to a messed up world on the brink.. we gotta get congress and the administration to see that the Constitution is NOT 'just a gawdamned piece of paper".
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Sandman

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 06:09:01 PM »
WE ARE AT WAR!

Secrecy is one of our best tools in the fight against terror. I don't know what all the whining and handwringing is about. If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. The President was tasked by God to take on this fight and if you can't support him, you need to go find another country to live in because you're not welcome here.
sand

Offline Ripsnort

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2006, 06:16:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Goomba
According to this article, there is no such statement as the one you interpreted...

 

That's simply not what was said...it's a politically charged, convenient twisting of words.

Also, as to the data mining arguement...when did you agree to let credit bureaus mine and archive your personal financial data?  When did you sign on to let them make thier own value judgement of you as a credit risk, then share that opinion with others, possibly to your detriment?  Where are the laws governing such behavior?  Where is the regulatory oversight?  What is a person's recourse when there are conflicts or error, other than going to the source of the mistake and hoping they'll agree with you?  None whatsoever...but that's OK.

The fact is that financial transactions are monitored by all kinds of entities at all times.  The bank that issued your credit card, the store where you used it, the third-party marketing firm that's hired to evaluate and profile the buying demographic...not to mention almost every web page you'll ever visit.

The point Hastert and other are actually trying to make is that the idea of freedom of the press is not childishly simple, and there are expectations of responsibility associated with it.  A newspaper CAN actually print a harmful, irresponsible article.  What's the difficulty in accepting that?

The same idea has been hashed over concerning freedom of speech...not everything qualifies.  And not all speech is responsible speech, else we would not have things like slander and hate-speech laws.  We have a right to freedom of assembly too, but try doing it without a permit in NYC and see what happens.  Where's the moral outrage there?

The right to free press, or free speech, or assembly do not trump the rights of another to be safe, secure and free from persecution.  

Free speech does not mean a right to incite riot.

Would a person feel just as wronged if the story detailed where American troops were stationed, what patrols and routes were planned for the day, what level of armament they had and who their informers were?  That way, we could all be properly informed...we're entitled to know, after all, right?

What if it was your brother/son/dad/mom they outed that day, so the terrorist could have an easier time of killing them?

It feels better to be bubbling over with righteous indignation at the politcal outrage some choose to perceive, but I don't think it's a well thought out position to take.

Journalistic recklessness and fallibility are very real things...not everything known should be shouted from the rooftops, and never forget that our free press is a business...a business that needs to make money - first and foremost.

This was just wrong, and good people will pay the price for a stupid demonstration of "see what I can do and you can't stop me".  This kind of behavior is more dangerous to a free press, because it casts the spotlight on the press' inability to make intelligent decisions about it's bylines, thereby inviting controls we don't want.

Maybe the jihadists are all over this, maybe not.  Those who hunt these animals seem to feel quite strongly that we've lost an important tool.  

No, I most certainly do not support curtailing freedom of the press, but I absolutely demand a very high level of intelligence and responsibility, and an understanding of consequences and who they will befall.

NYT screwed the pooch, IMO.

BTW...as usual, my use of 'you' and 'your' is intended to be generic.


Oh quit making so much sense! Can't you see there is a good "Chicken Little The Sky is falling!" rant going on? ;)

Offline Nash

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Repub states "A free press undermines our country"
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2006, 06:26:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
if the executive branch does in fact "take over the government" it will be because the soccer moms have allowed it to happen while their emasculated husbands play "fantasy football".


How do you make this leap?

How does George "The Decider" Bush, claiming the powers of a unitary executive (king - in layman's terms), with the Republican controlled Congress' complete abdication of any of its responsiblities in this regard suddenly become the fault of soccer moms?

There's only one way for this to be so, and it would be because those soccer moms voted for these sons of *****es. Other than that? I fail to see your case.

Holy smokes.... AG Gonzales gets up in front of everyone and basically says, with a straight face, that Bush can do just whatever the hell he wants.... and it's the soccer moms fault for.... what? For not storming the capital?