A Most Eloquent and Compelling Argument

[storch]

See Rule #2, #5

[Hangtime]

Not a bad analogy.

For fishing and speeders.

Got one for why we've failed utterly to even put the next 2 bit murdering dictator on notice?

Look.. we keep trying to 'excuse' the war in Iraq.. that's not abnormal. We'd all like to think our national policy is based on nobel goals. But, honestly; is that why our government got jiggy with Saddam?

What's needed if we use the body count as the reason is more dictators on the hit parade. We need to publish a list, and start working down it. Somebody needs to know he's next.

We haven't done that. Meanwhile, murdering dictators keep building up body counts.

So, recognizing the truth.. our governemnt is the puppet of corporate intersts.. ask yourselves again WHY we went to Iraq.

Quit trying to whitewash the truth.

Do we deserve an honest government if we excuse dishonest behavior by that governemnt?

[xrtoronto]

Originally posted by Hangtime
we're either the worlds policemen, or we're a buncha freakin looters using excuses that are convienient to the cause.

Yah, saddam was/is worth going after.

But if yer gonna use his body count as an excuse, there's no excuse for not agressively dealing with all the other two-bit watermelon dictators with blood on their hands.

That is spot-on HT!:aok

[lukster]

If we are the world's policemen then the analogy fits. We don't have the resources to stop everyone from committing crime. Stopping some serves two purposes. One, it's get's some of the bad guys off the "street". Two, it puts the rest on notice.

Going after the worst isn't always the wisest choice. We learned that in Somalia.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by lukster
If we are the world's policemen then the analogy fits.

I think it is exceedingly obvious that we are not.

And, it's exceedingly obvious that we, as citizens wish that to be the truth.. but if we wish in one hand and crap in the other... Which one fills up first?

[Dos Equis]

Originally posted by Hangtime

Do we deserve an honest government if we excuse dishonest behavior by that governemnt?

The idea that someday DC will be filled with Abraham Lincolns and Mr Smith Goes to Washington is a joke. This is how politics is, and how it's always been.

But when Democracy is subverted, when votes in districts stop counting due to Diebold machines - then you better be concerned. And you better get out there and stump for a candidate that represents your financial interests. Unless you sit on several corporate boards, are liquid wealthy (personal worth over $10M of which you can get access to half that at any time) or work in defense or aerospace industry - I don't see how the last few years have been a good deal.

If you lost somebody in Iraq or know somebody who has - it's perfectly acceptable to ask why we went in there if it's clear that the WMD thing was a sham. Especially since the Taliban don't exactly seem quelled in Afghanistan and al-queda is still staging attacks in places like Spain, and we're arresting the guys in Canada and Florida. Cause Iraq is damn expensive. It's not helping the debt situation any. And I'm kinda unsure what the blood of US servicemen is getting us. It doesn't seem to be cheap oil.

Paul Wolfowiz came up with the crazy reverse domino theory of establishing a democracy in the middle east. This is his plan, and it was Rummy who browbeat Tommy Franks into using way fewer troops than what was needed. So, is anyone accountable? Because the only people who really have benefited in this sideshow is Halliburton and the subsidiaries like KBR who are making a fortune setting up tent cities and flying in supplies. And the oil companies who are making record profits. Seems like the American people on the whole are getting the shaft.

[john9001]

please, please, just calm down, Dos Equis, Hangtime and all you other warmongers, how many wars do you want to fight at one time? You people cry and cry about Iraq but them you want to attack every other despot in the whole world.

it seems that you don't want to fight one war but you will fight a dozen wars at the same time.

if you hate boosh and the "neo-cons" just say so, don't make the stupid argument that going into Iraq was wrong but fighting 12 countries at once  is right.

[Dos Equis]

Originally posted by john9001
please, please, just calm down, Dos Equis, Hangtime and all you other warmongers, how many wars do you want to fight at one time? You people cry and cry about Iraq but them you want to attack every other despot in the whole world.

it seems that you don't want to fight one war but you will fight a dozen wars at the same time.

if you hate boosh and the "neo-cons" just say so, don't make the stupid argument that going into Iraq was wrong but fighting 12 countries at once  is right.

Strange you just single out Hangtime and me as warmongers. That's irony, and just how upside down it is around here.

I'm sorry if these questions upset you. I just want people to ask themselves if the situation as it stands is what they thought they voted for. It's not about if we like Bush, it's about if you still do.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Hangtime
I think it is exceedingly obvious that we are not.

Gawd I hope we're not. I can think of better uses for my tax dollars.

[Thrawn]

Why is it that we seem to be hearing about 100+ ****tes being found in a mass grave.  Is the same ****tes, are they different sites?  From what I have read SH executed about 3,000 of them.  They have been investigating the mass graves for years now, yet I have to see any information that supports the claim that SH had 300,000 people executed and stuck in mass graves, and it's tough to find new info post 2004.  Anyone else have better luck?

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by john9001
please, please, just calm down, Dos Equis, Hangtime and all you other warmongers, how many wars do you want to fight at one time? You people cry and cry about Iraq but them you want to attack every other despot in the whole world.

it seems that you don't want to fight one war but you will fight a dozen wars at the same time.

if you hate boosh and the "neo-cons" just say so, don't make the stupid argument that going into Iraq was wrong but fighting 12 countries at once  is right.

John, I've said it before.. I'll say it again:

Well, soon as industry gets it's prices capped, the forigen intrests and ownership of our transportation, defense and port industries are re-nationalized, the draft re-established, the borders closed and guarded and the moth ball air and sea fleets are mobilized, the standing army boosted to 2 million and the shipyards and armories get thier full swing marching orders..

THEN YOU CAN TELL ME WE ARE AT WAR.

We are NOT 'At War', we are pissing up the proverbial rope. And, we're squandering our wealth, our credibility and the lives of our young men and women to further corporate interests... and not world peace and security for all people, regardless of race, religion or wealth.

Thats TRUTH.

The resta the 'world police' BS up thread is whitewash. The 'world police' fuction is supposed to be the UN's function. not ours.

BUT if we're gonna police the world.. then that's war and my quote above is the proof we ARE at war. Without a national commitment and corporate profits not capped, we're just giving nodding approval to corporate looting at a level soccer moms can live with.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by storch
while rwanda was indeed a tragedy I don't fault president clinton for being reticent to send to troops to yet another african country that is imploding.  here's a bit of news for you and others.  that was a civil war, those tend to be the most vicious of all wars.  it was a good call not getting involved.  if you want to find fault find it with the african and moslem run UN.

Clinton sending troops = Black hawk down.  

He'd a hamstrung the military so bad would a been useless anyway.


Bronk

[DoctorYO]

john9001

warmongers

Doublespeak???............................



DoctorYo



PS:  "And whats the best defense?"

[Momus--]

Originally posted by storch
this is hilarious coming from a person who lives on a minuscule island who's empire was so expansive at one time that the sun never set upon it.  preach it elsewhere pal.

The glaringly obvious point you're missing is that I'm totally accepting of my nation's history and will happily discuss the ins and out of our imperialism with anyone.  The British were masters of dressing venal self-interest in the langauge of moral imperatives; that's why it's so easy to spot when others like yourselves engage in it.

That said, is the sum total of your argument that since the British did it in the past, it's ok for you now, since that's what it looks like. Makes a change from outright denial for once though...is that progress?

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Dictator - An absolute ruler.  A tyrant; a despot.

Now, the fishing analogy was a good one, but you took it......literally.  

On the contrary, I understood the attempt at analogy only too well especially within it's context as addressed to hangtime. Maybe you should read it again?

The following is what Lukster was NOT commentating on:  The benevolent dictator is a more modern version of the classical "enlightened despot," being an absolute ruler who exercises his or her political power for the benefit of the people rather than exclusively for his or her own benefit.

Sorry, no idea what point your trying to make here; come again?

[storch]

Originally posted by Momus--
The glaringly obvious point you're missing is that I'm totally accepting of my nation's history and will happily discuss the ins and out of our imperialism with anyone.  The British were masters of dressing venal self-interest in the langauge of moral imperatives; that's why it's so easy to spot when others like yourselves engage in it.

That said, is the sum total of your argument that since the British did it in the past, it's ok for you now, since that's what it looks like. Makes a change from outright denial for once though...is that progress?

 no actually.  there is no american empire per se.  while I do believe that if there were the world would be a far better place.  the rest of you folks just don't see the light.  while the superiority of the american way has made it the clear world leader and our popular culture has made astounding inroads everywhere, smothering just about everyone else's one can hardly compare what you seem to be calling american hegemony to the outright conquest and subjugation of approximately 50% of the world's population which is what britian effectively did at the height of it's power.