Author Topic: Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF  (Read 1070 times)

Offline Kratzer

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Offline Swager

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »
Go Lockheed Martin Go!!!!!

Hope my stock goes up!!!

 :)
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Offline Dowding

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2001, 04:03:00 PM »
Is that the plane the UK is supposed to be buying for its future carrier fleet? Or am I just confused?
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Offline Animal

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2001, 04:07:00 PM »
whoopeeit.

I'm sure it won cause it looks more attractive to the eye.

Offline Animal

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2001, 04:08:00 PM »
Yes Dowding, thats the future plane for your country to replace the Harrier.

Offline Tronspir

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2001, 05:11:00 PM »
Animal is spot on, the panel that decided this was made up primarily of ex-fighter jocks, and we all know they don't drive sleek looking fast cars now don't we?  Looks is everything to them.  Functionally, the aircraft were identical.

Bad year for Boeing, actually beginning in 1998, when from 98-2000, we laid off 48,000 workers, then 9-11, another 30-40,000 will get pink slips between now and next year.  Then losing the contract...we're talking almost 100,000 people will be laid off out of 250,000 world wide since '98.

If there is a silver lining in Boeings future, its the fact that it will be the major sub-contractor for the JSF.

Offline -duma-

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2001, 05:14:00 PM »
WHAT? You reckon these people choose looks over everything else?

God I wish that was true.. maybe we'd be seeing this thing flying then.. but they chose the F22 instead. It's a crime  :(

Maybe they've learnt from their mistakes though  :)

Offline Tronspir

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2001, 05:17:00 PM »
DUMA! good to see ya mate!  Boeing learn from the past? You don't know Boeing and its new age management.  :)

Offline Zigrat

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2001, 05:35:00 PM »
looks are not the only reason it won ripsnort


the lifting fan of the lm design is better since it is a big chunk of volume in 1 area that when not being used for svtol can be used for extra fuel to have a longer range air force/navy variant

also Boeing had big problems with their wing and i think they were oging to have to totally redesign it. their proposed jsf wasnt anything resembling the jsf that participated in the quals.

plus i dont understand how that thing was stealthy at all, the fan was visible as hell from the front and the fan makes a helluva big signature on radar.

Offline Animal

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2001, 06:22:00 PM »
Actually Zig,
I'm pretty sure you know more than me about the project, but from what Ive read, the Boeing model excelled Lockheeds in one important thing: simplicity.

Now I dont have data to back my big mouth on this, but I will search for my sources tonight if I am able to (I.E: If I dont get drunk)

The one big advantage I see to the LH JSF, is its similarities to their F-22, maybe  some of their parts are interchangeable? being from the same company, maybe it could make manufacture and mainteinance costs down?

Offline J_A_B

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2001, 09:57:00 PM »
My god....that "fighter" is even uglier than the F-22!  It looks like something that escaped from the 1950's.

Yuck!


J_A_B

Offline LtHans

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2001, 11:35:00 PM »
Ok, more fuel for the rumor mill.

The Boeing JSF has a simpler lift system, but it uses more fuel in the hover than the Lockheed one.  Boeing JSF has two lift nozels like the Harrier (harrier has four nozzels), though the nozzles are only used in the hover mode with the tailpipe closed off.  The two nozels only point down.

   

The Lockheed JSF rotates the tail nozel down, and fires up a shaft driven lift fan behind the cockpit.  It is more complex, but is more efficient.  The Navy and Airforce versions have no vertical take off system at all, and the space the lift fan takes up is an additional fuel tank.

   

I'm concure with Zigrat.  The Boeing JSF used in the trials is NOT the same design they were going to actually build for production.  The next Boeing JSF would have dropped the delta wing and gone with a more traditional layout of wings, twin tails and stabalators.

Before   After

The reason was the delta wing had center of gravity problems when you sling external weapons on them.

The Lockheed JSF on the other hand bassically never had any problems of any kind from start to finish and has been one of the most trouble free prototypes the USAF has ever seen.  There really has not been any changes from the initial concept to the final prototype.  Boeing only had two advantages over it.  The simpler lift system, and vectored thrust.  The Lockheed JSF does not have vectored thrust in any configuration, other than to point the tailpipe down for short take off and landings.

Hans.

[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: LtHans ]

Offline LtHans

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2001, 11:53:00 PM »
Quote
s that the plane the UK is supposed to be buying for its future carrier fleet? Or am I just confused?

Yes, it is.  Britain has been involved with the JSF project with the USA.  Our US Marine Corp and your Royal Navy are getting the same plane.

 

By the way.  The test pilots for the JSF program are all British Harrier pilots.

Hans.

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: LtHans ]

Offline LtFrans

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2001, 12:47:00 AM »
Well, to correct my brother, not all were royal navy, but some of them were.

My vote was for the lockheed design as well.
It has shorter landing gear which is better for carrier operations (shorter ought to mean sturdier).  Boeing unfortunatly put thiers in the wings and has to get past that rather large belly of the X-32.  they were also retracted into the main body of the plane, which would seem to me allow the wing use more space/weight for more bombs (always a good thing : ) ).

The hover system on the X-35 has 2 points of lift, "front" and back.  The X-32 does have 2 points as well. but they are right next to each at the center of gravity making for less stability, and more work for the balance nozzles.  Lift a book by the edges and then by the middle, which are you more likely to drop (read: crash)?

Now I did like the thrust vectoring ability of the X-32.   And reliability of a simpler hover system is nice, but so is longer range. The X-35 has either a more efficiant hover or a fuel tank witch means it can fly farther on the same gallon of gas.

As for stealth, I think the X-35 was probably still stealthier than the re-worked X32 prefered weapon concept.

Boeing has the F-18E/F as well as the B-2, B-1B, the on the way out the B-52(?) and F-15.

Lockheed has the F-22, JSF/F-35, F-117, and on the way out the F-16.

If someone gets laid off at boeing, Probably they could get a job at lockheed.

[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: LtFrans ]

Offline Zigrat

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Lockheed trumps Boeing for JSF
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2001, 12:54:00 AM »
i am an aerospace grad student and the 2nd in command of the jsf program was just at georgia tech begging us to come working for him. he needs to hire like 3000 ae engineers in the next year. i would not worry about jobs.