Author Topic: Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural  (Read 1392 times)

Offline Hap

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« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2006, 09:19:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You didn't read this thread did you?

;)


I glanced at it Holden, and I did not read it.

hap

Offline Hap

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« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2006, 09:22:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
wanting to keep the union together even tho it was a gross trampling on states rights that would forever change the meaning of the contract between the people and the federal government and give the federal government much more power that it was ever meant to have.
lazs


yuppers.  a "matter" to be sure.  Though I don't know that your last clause is correct.


Offline lazs2

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« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2006, 09:36:46 AM »
This is truely funny... a canadian explaining how we are all Americans and that only the southerner is to blame for the rift.... that our education system and news media and hollywood elite and yes... even our "scientists" are all saints that no one can question..


unless..... unless of course they stray from the lefty socialist line... then of course the most vile and vitriholic condemnation is too good for em....  

Those who stray in teaching are ostracized... those who don't go along with the 80% or so liberal line in the news better be looking for work in the few conservative outlets...

Thos who don't go on "24 hour fasts" or raise money for libverals in hollywood are denied the social interaction needed to work... the lefty version of the blacklist...  those scientists who don't jump on the man made global warming craze are denied grant money...

Yep... some canadian explains it all to us as being an attack by the red areas against the blue and that being.... the uneducated people who live in the wrong kind of homes and eat the wrong kind of food and don't wear the right kind of clothes or watch the right kind of news or movies...

he freaks because these people attack socialism and more government in their lives.... He joins his your-0-peeean bretheren in barbaric arrogance against a system far superior to his own.

And.... to top it all off.... he tells us this is all "southern"  white men (he would never blame women or coloreds that would be well... red)

He seems to feel that these ignorant hating southern white men are to blame even tho the red and blue map makes it quite apparent that it is the effite socialists against those who would rather have less government in their lives.

oh... did I point out that the guy is a canadian who has probly never spent any time with southerners or conservative Americans but has spent countless hours making fun of them based on what he has read somewhere?

lazs
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 09:39:20 AM by lazs2 »

Offline Nash

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« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2006, 11:58:03 AM »
Now that the government worker who hails from the northern part of liberal California has had his say (what it was, exactly, is beyond me), does anyone from the actual south feel like addressing the victimhood that we always hear coming from it? I'd especially like to hear if anyone else feels as Leslie does; that the south has been punished for these last 130 years.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2006, 12:01:49 PM »
Sounds to me like they are pro-reparations.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2006, 12:08:13 PM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Sounds to me like they are pro-reparations.


I'd settle for pro-takeyerassbacktoyankeelandtions. ;)

Offline soda72

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« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2006, 12:28:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
that the south has been punished for these last 130 years.


140 years would be much closer...

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2006, 05:52:15 PM »
Nash,

About the only places I hear the Civil War debated at length are on these bbs and in college classrooms.

Truthfully, it's just not that big a topic down here anymore.  Race relations gets more play than the War of Northern Aggression (heh!)

I think what riles up most Southerners on these boards is the tendency of some northerners to use the topic to "tweak their noses."  These jibes are, in my opinion, more of a clash of urban and rural cultures than anything else.  It has been my perception that some of our western posters have, at times sided with the rural side of this argument.  

As evidence of the difference of the perceptions of the Civil War, witness the regional views of Abraham Lincoln's administration.  northerners view him, for the most part, as one of the best presidents to ever occupy the office, while Southerners are quicker to point out his failings.  That is not to say that all northerners view Lincoln as a saint;  nor do all Southerners view him as a sociopath.  Obviously, to any objective person, the truth about "Honest Abe" lies somewhere in the middle of the two extreme views.

What I'm trying to point out is that there is undoubtedly as much myth evident in one of those views as there is in the other.

For further evidence that both sides of the Civil War argument have some maturing to do, witness the arguments we've had on these boards about the "cause" of the Civil War.  Slavery.  The big "booger bear" of an argument that sets rival debaters here to foaming at the mouth.

Quite frankly, having studied the topic thoroughly while working on two degreees, and teaching about the war for 30 years in a high-school classroom, I can state that the actual cause was economics.  Specifically the economic differences between north and South as embodied in the Nullification Crisis, which was touched off by the Tariff of 1828.  That Tariff was strongly opposed by the Southern states, because their citizens purchased most of their goods from European nations.  The Tariff protected Northern industries from cheap foreign competition, but drove up the prices of all manufactured goods purchased by the South.  South Carolina threatened to secede and voted to nullify the act.

This brought up an argument over state's rights.  Neither of these two arguments, over the tariff or over state's rights, was directly related to slavery.  The argument over high tariffs would remain a sore point between the two regions for decades.

Slavery was also a majory issue between north and South, as evidenced by the Missouri Compromise, the Compromise of 1850, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the infamous Dred-Scott decision.

And yet, Lincoln did not cite slavery as the main issue driving his decision to send troops into the Southern States...it was preservation of the Union.

And it was not the Civil War, by itself, that left the widest rift between North and South...at least in my opinion.  It was the Reconstruction Period, with Southern states under control of a hostile Republican congress, dominated by angry and bitter men such as Thaddeus Stephens and Charles Sumner (although Sumner had sufficient cause to hate the South, after the beating he took from "Bully Brooks.")

My previous post touched on some of the evils of the Carpetbagger governments in the South.  While these governments accomplished much in the South that was good, they were, nevertheless, permeated with corrupt officials concerned mainly with lining their own pockets, and who committed the ultimate sin...organizing the black vote and using it to maintain themselves in power.

The main cause of the rift that existed between north and South, that persisted for so long and gave rise to Jim Crow and other evils, lie in the years of the Reconstruction.

Thankfully, much of that resentment has faded...indeed...the South is far different from what it was when I was a child.  Things may not be perfect, but they are far better than they were.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Toad

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« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2006, 08:44:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
There is but one America.

Yet, you'd never guess it by listening to the folks residing in the Southern portion of it.  


You don't have to look very far to find sections of countries or nations that feel about the same way as the Southerners do.

It might have something to do with having their rights trampled by others. It probably takes a long time to forget.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2006, 10:32:16 PM »
Shuckins - awesome post - thanks!!

Same with you Toad, but I have a question. When you say that it "might have something to do with having their rights trampled by others," you of course realize that the North plays by the same rules as the South. Or am I mistaken about that?

Are the South's rights trampled while the North's are not?

If not, then country that America has eventually become is, like it or not, a land of shared sacrifice and opportunity. One nation, where the laws applicable to the country as a whole are evenly applied - North and South.

Thus it would seem to me that any misgivings about the result of the Civil War (and the resulting Reconstruction) necessarily translates into having misgivings about the America that exists today.

Mind you, I think that having misgivings about it is perfectly acceptable, perfectly American and in fact, I do think that - beyond a shadow of a doubt - the Civil War still looms large in the collective psyche of the South.

If there's any doubt about it now, please refer to "people in his administration wanted punishment for the South, and we got it to the tune of 130 years," and "it might have something to do with having their rights trampled by others."

Be that as it may, I do have serious issues with how those misgivings have been focused on what they seem to perceive as the "elite:" higher education, the press, good governance and science to name but a few (and the list is long).

And it seems to me that the South's answer to this "elite" is the embracing of its opposite in almost every meaningful way: deriding university and education, muzzling a free press, cheering on the dismantling of the government, and a determined effort to replace science with anything but science.

Finally, I can't help but think that these positions are irrational... but continue to be championed for no other reason but that they are at odds with what America is now as a result of the Civil War.

Uhm.... anyways.... that's my interpretation of it. If I'm off base, please, enlighten me.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2006, 11:16:08 PM »
Nash,

To ask what might have happened if Lincoln had not been assassinated is to indulge in mere speculation.  Sure, the Reconstruction might have gone a lot smoother, with less bitterness and rancor, but we can never know for sure.

As far as the assertion that Southerners had their "rights" trampled...that is true in the sense that many whites who had supported the Confederate Cause were disenfranchised for many years after the war.  No greater insult for the whites of that day could have been imagined, in that they lost the vote while the former slaves, for the first time, gained full voting rights.

In the twentieth century, some in the South would undoubtedly say that northern civil rights activists and northern politicians singled the Southern states out for special attention.  To wit, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson worked feverishly to eliminate du jure segregation in the South while virtually ignoring the equally abhorrent de facto segregation which existed in the North.  One clue that this criticism wasn't entirely without merit can be found in the extremely violent and destructive riots of the 1960s that were, almost exclusively, a phenomenon of the northern cities.

As to the perception that many Southerners despise the elitism of the north and readily embrace it's opposite, I can only say that is true, but only to a point.  It would be more accurate to say that the rural areas of the South eschew the values they perceive as being embraced by the urban culture of the north:  moral relativism, sexual promiscuity, atheism, elitism, and pride in an urban lifestyle.  This detestation of urban culture, and the reciprocity of northern detestation of Southern rural culture, perhaps embodied most strongly in the writings of H. L. Mencken, is no more than the age old strife between city-folk and country-folk that has existed since the walls of Jericho were first raised.

This resentment of northern snootiness does NOT carry over into a destation of the United States itself, its history, or its government.  Indeed, Southerners and Westerners have traditionally sent a greater percentage of their sons into the military than the urban areas of the country.

One example of the latter relates to two towns in my home state of Arkansas.  Dermott and McGehee are sometimes called the twin cities in our county, although the use of the phrase twin cities is a misnomer.  Anyway, during World War II both towns numbered approximately 3500 souls.  Both sent equal numbers of young men into the military services.  Dermott lost nary a son to enemy action...a miracle one might say...while McGehee lost 36.

Visit the South and you will be treated with great courtesy.  Cuss the region or the country, and a Southerner will kick your ass.

Regards, Shuckins
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 11:21:16 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Nash

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« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2006, 12:04:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Visit the South and you will be treated with great courtesy.


This has been - without exception - my experience there. Absolute faith restoring courtesy.

Another great post, Shuckins. I'll give other people the chance to pipe in before I respond with more of my BS.

But about the courtesy....

I've been there many many times. Some just as a traveller who's had to navigate the mess that is the Dallas/Ft. Worth airport in order to get to somewhere else.

Other times... well...

Louisiana. Homeless and stranded. Running around with others of like circumstance. This kid finds a box of Ritz crackers in the garbage - gives it to me: "Take it." I ate the whole thing.

Georgia, Alabama, wherever..... same deal. Those people are amazing and I'll never forget it.

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2006, 12:26:24 AM »
Where do you get these ideas from Nash?  I have yet to see where anyone on this bbs (from the South or not) has derided education where it's open to respectful discussion and debate.  Nor have I seen where anyone wanted to muzzle a free press.  Folks want the press to be responsible instead of sensational.  About dismantling the govt.  I for one have always said I have faith in our Congress to make sensible decisions and laws.  I vote, and I have never said otherwise.  Science...I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say replace science with anything but.  Please elaborate on that one.


Concerning the South and in response to your previous question "What do we want?"  We want America to come first.  We're tired of any idea of the UN attempting to dictate policy.  We want Western civilization emphasized in education.  

I suppose what we really want is for the South and its great people to be accorded respect, because as faithful and loyal Americans, southerners have earned it.  And as Shuckins said, things are getting better.  I see it as more of a culture clash than anything, and this is a difficult thing to respond to, as people in any particular region are set in their ways, or, if you will, they have a system they adhere to.  We are proud of our heritage, as I'm sure you are of yours.

I'm not sure victimhood is the message I was delivering in my post, but if it seemed to be I apologize for not being more clear.  That was my fault for not giving specifics, though it's kinda hard to pin down.  And I admit to being biased.  With me it's the little things I suppose, and this is strictly local, like tearing down historic buildings and replacing them with modern ugly and imposing architecture.  Or the city art museum not displaying local goods made by local artists in the gift shop.  This may seem of small consequence.  I see it as a kind of region-bore inferiority complex.  To me there's something wrong with that.  But that's something I don't want, and in keeping with the spirit of what I do want.  I want the good and positive to not be hidden under a bushel.

Anyway, that's all I have to say about that.:D  Have a great day.  



Les

Offline Toad

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« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2006, 07:15:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash

Same with you Toad, but I have a question. When you say that it "might have something to do with having their rights trampled by others," you of course realize that the North plays by the same rules as the South. Or am I mistaken about that?

 


You are mistaken. The North did not play by the same rules.

The origin of this goes WAY back, before the Civil War.

There is NO Constitutional mandate for any part of the Federal government to force a sovereign state to remain in the Union. Therefore, under the 10th, any power not specifically enumerated to the Federal government resides in the individual State or the People.

Lincoln had no justification...none... for using force of arms to prevent a sovereign State from secession.

Like so many other forced governmental associations around the globe, hard feelings remain for literally hundreds of years after these things happen.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2006, 08:03:59 AM »
Not to add much here, but I can vouch for the segregation existing in Northern cities during the 60's and later. Chicago in particular was one of the most racially divided places I've ever witnessed.  In many respects it still is.