Author Topic: Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural  (Read 1389 times)

Offline Hap

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Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2006, 09:22:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
There is NO Constitutional mandate for any part of the Federal government to force a sovereign state to remain in the Union. Therefore, under the 10th, any power not specifically enumerated to the Federal government resides in the individual State or the People.


Toad, I don't know for a fact that you're correct because I'm not read up like I should be.  What you say sounds right.

Quite the issue.  Not a result that displeases me.  I've not seriously pondered states exercising the autonomy you mention and the result upon the union.  From 1865 to 1965, I suppose there is much fuel for discussion and evidence of states exercising autonomy (their [/I]rights[/i] ; can't think of another noun) and the Federal Gov't saying, no, no, that is wrong.  Mississippi comes to mind.  Also, in the north east I recollect the sewing/sweat shops, one being burned down with all inside because the bosses locked the workers in.

I dont' know if Fed government intervened in the case of the seamstresses.  I'm sure folks will set us right with the facts.

hap
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 09:32:49 AM by Hap »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2006, 06:39:16 PM »
It really doesn't take that long to read the Constitution, especially the document and the Blll of Rights. There are the amendments but not all that many up to the Civil War.

There's nothing in there that specifically enumerates a power to the Federal Government that would allow the Feds to force a State to stay in the Union.

Lincoln radically altered the Constitutional status of the Federal Government.

Look at it this way: as originally set up, the Feds were Representatives of the States. The Federal government was a tool to implement the desires of the States. After Lincoln, the Federal government began to rule the States which is just bassackwards from what the Founders had in mind.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 06:41:51 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2006, 06:45:49 PM »
And can you imagine the screaming today if any President suspended habeus corpus, implemented military tribunals for civilians, declared martial law and had Congressional representatives the spoke against him deported to Canada?

Yet Lincoln is apparently revered by some despite this trampling of Constitutional rights.

Go figure.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2006, 07:14:12 PM »
Sic semper tyrannis! WTG Booth.

I only wish a couple of other brave men had the guts to do the same to LBJ and FDR.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2006, 08:16:54 PM »
You'd wish them dead? A bit over the top, IMO.

I just wish they'd never been elected.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2006, 09:34:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You'd wish them dead? A bit over the top, IMO.


Maybe you are right. I am against both the death penalty and abortion so wishing death upon some one is inconsistant with those beliefs. I certainly wouldn't have pulled the trigger. OTOH I have come to the conclusion that some folks may just need to be killed. Johnson and Lincoln have a lot of blood on their hands. FDR can't be blamed for war but his programs and policies on the domestic front were horrible IMHO.

Quote
I just wish they'd never been elected.  ;)


I won't argue with you there.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2006, 10:06:43 PM »
I don't want this to sound too flippant - because it surely is not - but how is keeping the South in the Union any different than the U.S.'s taking over land from the Native Americans and displacing its people?

How is it any different than the annexing of the Western U.S. (Oregon, Texas) and the Mexican-American War that led to Mexico's ceding of the S.W. of the U.S. (California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado etc.)? How is it any different from the idea of Manifest Destiny?

It's not much different when you get right down to brass tacks.

A couple of hundred years later, and you've got an America that stretches from sea to shining sea.

What about any of that history makes the South special?

I mean, maybe MT was right. Maybe you really do want reparations?

Ya hear a lot of hurt coming from the south over this, but what you don't really hear in any significant way is anything resembling the sort of sentiment that would have the South wanting to secede from the United States. In fact, the opposite can be said; the South are some of the most vocally patriotic people in America.

So the South doesn't want to leave, yet is bitter about having to remain, and loves the country as it ended up becoming with them in it.

What's the answer here?

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2006, 11:57:51 PM »
Debating state's rights or the causes of the War of Northern Aggression or the cultural differences between North and South does not necessarily indicate bitterness.

The South has a unique history.  It is the only region of the nation to have been invaded by the Federal Government.  Of COURSE Southerners are going to view that event differently than citizens from the north or West.  Oddly enough, Southerners take pride in that uniqueness.  

Conceding the argument about the evils of slavery, the debate in favor of the doctrine of state's rights has a great deal of merit if one looks at that debate in light of what many of the Founding Fathers believed about the basic powers and responsibilities of the State and federal governments.

Also, there is considerable merit to the accusations about the war having one of its root causes in the economic struggle between north and South which manifested itself in a decades long political struggle for control of Congress and its power to regulate the tariff and set the nation's economic policy.

Southerners are closer to all these historic events than the residents of any other section of the country.  They have studied the period extensively, and some of the best histories of the Civil War, Reconstruction, and Jim Crow have been written by Southern historians, such as Douglas Southall Freeman and Comer van Woodward.

But bitterness.  Hardly.  A willingness to defend the belief in the "lost cause,"...certainly.  Pride in the nobility of character of men such as Robert E. Lee, despite the stigma attached to that cause...most definitely.  

For Lee is the embodiment of the best elements of the Southern spirit.  Honor, generosity, patriotism.  Yes, patriotism....for when the war was over no man worked harder than he to mend the rifts between North and South...or to encourage his fellow Southerners to accept the fait accompli.  

Who else but Lee would be the first white man to kneel in prayer beside a former slave at the alter of his church?

The same fierce pride in Southern history is also mirrored in the fierce patriotism Southerners have for the United States.  How odd it must seem to a Yankee that a descendant of a Confederate Rebel can show equal pride in flying both the Confederate battle flag and Old Glory.

Unique?  You betcha!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 12:03:53 AM by Shuckins »

Offline AWMac

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« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2006, 12:25:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
The South, from the civil war right on up to today, have been punished, eh? 130 years of it?

No wonder the South is pissed off and just can't seem to get over it. I'd be pissed off too; being, like, half of America and still being punished for something that happened 130 years ago.

When-oh-when will the punishment stop?!


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« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 12:40:19 AM by MP4 »

Offline AWMac

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« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2006, 12:33:18 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 12:41:25 AM by MP4 »

Offline Nash

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« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2006, 12:35:56 AM »
LOL.

You wanna fight me Mac?

I'm game. But no weapons, and that includes your Walmart bulk pallete of Kleenex.

:rofl

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2006, 09:08:44 AM »
nash... you can't have it both ways... first you say that the "south" is full of people that hate state mandated and controlled education and liberal controlled media bias and big government and then when it is pointed out that it is not just the south that dislikes those things...

My folks lived in the south... I was there every year.  I am not a southerner...  My grandparents came here to the U.S. long after the civil war and I live in kalifornia.... I still think I have a right to voice my opinion on government and education and the press.  

I think that the war between the states was a war about states rights and even more.... the rights of the individual against those of a strong central government.... the individual lost.

Today we have the same kind of fight but the borders are not so well drawn... it is more like a the red and blue map looks more like a quilt sewn by a crazy woman and only makes sense when you look at population areas..

the rural people still want to be individuals... the sardine men and women still want to be socialists jammed into their little city boxes and minding everyone elses business.

MT.... the south did not or is not asking for reparations.... the immigrants to this country who were all treated way worse than any slave ever was are not asking for reparations..... only one group is that I know of...  

The loss of the civil war was a loss to all Americans who believed in the tenants of the first revolution against a stong and arrogant central government in england.

Those in favor of a strong central government remain the enemy.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2006, 09:18:22 AM »
The other reason why strong states rights are important is because no matter where you live in the U.S. it would be nice to have options.

For instance... many states are more liberal and have higher taxes and more restrictions on how you live.  It is nice to be able to move to a place like new york city if you are a person like nash (except he isn't a citizen of the U.S of course) and to move to a place like Texas or Arizona if your sympathies are like mine..

Restrictions on cars should be different in the LA basin than say the plains.....  gun control laws should maybe be different in detroit than in some rural state or county.

No strong central government can please all these types of people... that is why there is such a huge red and blue rift.  

Red people don't want to live in the blue areas and the blue ones hate the red areas.   They really should have seperate laws not stong central ones except for human rights ones.

lazs

Offline AWMac

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« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2006, 09:29:17 AM »
Nash you seem to be French Canadian.

:D

Offline Hap

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« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2006, 11:46:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Sic semper tyrannis! WTG Booth.

I only wish a couple of other brave men had the guts to do the same to LBJ and FDR.


Bruno, what you say is plain awful and wrong.

hap