Idea discussed at the con.

[AKWarp]

I dont like the proposed changes.

What I would like to see is troops and strats that are harder to kill.  The biggest draw for porking is how easy it is for a single plane (fighter) to quickly and easily shut down a base (in terms of strat making it useless).

What if you made the targets harder to kill and hangars will only come up at all if supplies are brought to the field?  Determine a number of supplies for each type of building and let the supplier pick which hangar/building they are trying to supply (FH supplies, BH supplies, ammo supplies,etc)?  I know, having to supply your fields is a drag, but that would make the issue of keeping a base useful a function of team effort.


Can the accuracy of field ack be made variable?  Say, if the field is completely undefended, the accuracy is higher (to make porking more difficult, etc)?

Just some thoughts....

[rabbidrabbit]

warp,

Changing the fields to some of the ones the scenario team made would do a lot towards that, and I'm pretty sure you can turn up accruracy too.

[Iceman24]

yeah I'm definately with ya on that MOIL, if the bases had defense like that i don't think I would get through the 1st pass without getting popped lol

[Dantoo]

Cheee more gamey crap to pizz off the last of what's good with the game.


Yeah sure introduce this and a few other things to totally script the MA to conform with what the loudest of the loud whiners want.  They all want everybody else to be constrained and hamstrung so that everything conforms to their narrow view of the world and how it should work.  

While we are on this type of change/improvement to the game - can we introduce the pink doughnuts you fly through to completely restore your health/armour and ammo?

Oh yeah, if you don't completely understand my point of view:

How about fix some of the things that are broken instead of creating newer unreal rubbish concepts designed just to annoy a few more of the players.

[sullie363]

Originally posted by Dantoo
Cheee more gamey crap to pizz off the last of what's good with the game.


Yeah sure introduce this and a few other things to totally script the MA to conform with what the loudest of the loud whiners want.  They all want everybody else to be constrained and hamstrung so that everything conforms to their narrow view of the world and how it should work.  

While we are on this type of change/improvement to the game - can we introduce the pink doughnuts you fly through to completely restore your health/armour and ammo?

Oh yeah, if you don't completely understand my point of view:

How about fix some of the things that are broken instead of creating newer unreal rubbish concepts designed just to annoy a few more of the players.

Agreed.

[AKWarp]

Things change, get used to it.

Making bases harder to pork by a lone fighter isn't exactly gamey.

[rabbidrabbit]

Originally posted by AKWarp
Things change, get used to it.

Making bases harder to pork by a lone fighter isn't exactly gamey.

True enough but this way is...

especially when a number of much better ideas abound in this thread.

[MWL]

Greetings,

  I just got one more question, and then I will leave this to cooler heads.  How did we and the bad guys take down the majority of bases in WW II?   Was the primary means stafing, dive bombing or level bombing?

  I Know Japanese strike on the Midway airstip (a small field?) used 108 planes - escorts and bombers.  And the Strike Leader called for a second strike.

  What was the primary technique used by the attackers?  Level or dive bombing?  How long was Midway out of operation?

  Concerning the US carrier strike, it took 6 attack squadrons to destroy the IJN carriers.  The Essex Class carriers had (approx) 98 airframes available for all missions - 54ish for Torp or Dive bomber missions.  Everybody knows the torps didn't fare well, but set the conditions for the success of the Dive bombers - and a that level bombing a carrier group previously failed miserably. (no, no won't hijack a thread!)

  I could ask the simular questions regarding G-canal, Truk, the Solomans and other places the US reduced IJN and IJA airfields during the Island hopping campaign.

  Obviously, this be a game - and play balance is more important than realism.  How auto-defensable (i.e. on average how many planes should it take to destroy a base, by type and size) do 'we' want undefended bases from stafing and dive and level bombing attacks?  1? 4? 15? 108?

  I would think that, on average, the auto defenses should be able to take out 2-3 lone attackers (pilots with an average skill set and with an average cannon load out), if they get within AAA range with minimum damage to the base.

Regards,

[Hades55]

Ok, you asked for it

It was like this.....

----The Attack of Pierre Closterman Squadron in a German Airfield----

a scenario very close to AH type of attack...

From TEN ( 10 ) Tempests, 8 mia, 2 came back.

Posted by Swoop   http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2822&highlight=Closterman

**Excerpt from The Big Show by Pierre Clostermann.**

We were at 14,000 feet and kept straight on over to the left, as if we had no intention of attacking. I took a close look at the field: the small crosses parked just where we expected them showed up on the bright green grass of early spring. I particularly noticed one, two, four, seven flak towers. Their shadows clearly projected on the perimeter track by the sun

'Look out Filmstar Leader, flak at 6 o'clock!'

Sure enough, 200 yards behind us five big black puffs from 88 mm. shells had appeared. OK, five more seconds and then I would attack. The objective was behind us and we were facing the sun. Fear caught me by the throat and stopped me breathing. Aerial combat always found me calm -
after the early stages - but flak was quite different.

'Drop your tanks, Filmstar'.

My stomach contracted and a wave of nausea swept over me - the advantage of a single-seater is that you can pass out with fear without anybody noticing.

'Quick. 180 port, go.'

This would bring us back facing the airfield, with the sun at our backs.

'Diving--full out, Filmstar!'

My nine Tempests were beautifully echeloned on my left although we were diving almost
vertically.

'Smell of flowers,' came Bay Adams voice mockingly in the earphones. Flak! Christ, what flak! The entire surface of the airfield seemed to light up with the flashes from 20mm and 37mm guns. There must have been at least 40 of them. A carpet of white puffs spread out below us and the black puffs of the 37's stood out in regular string of eight.

What flak! Physical fear is the most terrible thing a man can suffer - my heart leaped into my mouth, I was covered with sweat, with sticky, clammy sweat. My clenched toes swam in my boots.

We dived desperately into the moke…explosions and tracer to left and right crossing over and under us….bangs around our wings and sinister dazzling flashes.

We were a mile from the perimeter, 150 feet from the ground. Men were running hither and thither.

'Lower for Christ's sake,' I yelled hysterically. The broad expanse of grass, carved by the gray runways, tilted up before my eyes and rushed towards me. We were doing over 450 mph. First a hangar … a bowser … then the Messerschmitts, perched clumsily on their narrow gear, about thirty of them, with men crouching under their wings. Too far to the left, unfortunately, outside my line of fire.

A group of a dozen Arados loomed up in my sight. I fired, I fired frantically, my thumb jammed on the button. My shells formed a ribbon of explosion worming its way between the Arados, climbing up the fuselage, hitting theengines … smoke …one of the planes exploded just as I was over it, and my Tempest was tossed up by the burning gust. A Tempest touched the ground and the fuselage
bounded up in a shower of fragments of smashed wings and tailplanes. More hangars in front of me. I fired a second burst-it exploded on the galvanized iron doors and the steel tanchions.

'Look out , Red 2' My No. 2 was coming straight for me, out of control, at a terrific speed. His hood had gone. At 470 mph 20 yards to my right, he went smack into a flak tower, cutting it in two beneath the platform.

The wooden frame flew into the air. A cluster of men hanging on to a gun collapsed into space. The Tempest crashed on the edge of the field, furrowing through a group of little houses, with a terrific flash of light; the engine had come adrift in a whirlwind of flames and fragments scattered in the sky.

It was all over … almost. One, two, three … the tracer bullets were pursuing me. I lowered my head and hunched myself behind my rear plating … twelve, thirteen, fourteen … I was going to cheat …a salvo of 37 burst so close that I got only the flash of the explosions without seeing the smoke…splinters rained down on my uselage…nineteen, twenty! I pulled the stick back and climbed straight up into the sky. The flak kept on.

I glanced back towards Schwerin, just visible under my tailplane. A thousand feet below a Tempest was climbing in zig-zags, the tracer stubbornly pursuing him. Fires near the hangars, columns of greasy smoke, a fireworks display of exploding magnesium bombs. The lone Tempest caught me up, waggled his wings and formed up line abreast.

'Hallo, Filmstar aircraft, reform south of target, angels 10.'

'Hallo, Pierre, Red 3 here, You know, I think the rest have had it.'

Surely Bay couldn't be right! I scanned the 360 degrees of the horizon, and the terrific pyramid of flak bursts above Schwerin right up to the clouds, hanging in the still air. No one.

1304 hours. We had attacked at 1303 hours. The nightmare had lasted perhaps 35 seconds from the beginning of our dive, and we had lost eight aircraft out of ten….


and to get a feeling of the real ammo....

 http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm

[Vortex]

Originally posted by TinmanX
I am hoping you are requiring totally honest opinions?

I hate the idea.

It takes AH further from simulation, closer to game.

Rampant porking makes the MA in some way more realistic?

In the end, its a game, nothing more, nothing less. More importantly the MA isn't a simulation of anything...its a big Quake match with planes. Structuring rules for better _gameplay_ in that environment is a good thing.

I think this the suggestion by HT is a really good one as it does address the porking problem.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by hitech

As to Widewings Idea, Ill just comment on the perk bombs,

If you don't have any perks, how are you ever supoosed to take bombs in a bomber to get perks?

The rest of his ideas would not impact wanting to live in any way, they just impact how hard it is to destroy objects.


The one decent idea in this thread is the smoking buildings before being destroyed, the only issue I have with that idea is the time it takes to implement it.


HiTech

Dale, I didn't state that I wanted to perk all bombs, just the 1,000 lb and heavier and no perks for level bombers. What I proposed is this:

"1) Place a perk value on bombs of greater weight than 500 lb or 250 kilos for all non-bomber aircraft. Let's say, 3 perks each. Perks are not expended if the pilot lands."

This means that you can still take a pair of 500 lb bombs (3 if flying a P-47), which means it would take more people or more individual flights to destroy a hanger.

Even if the perk on 1,000 lb bombs was applied to heavy and medium bombers, they still have the option of loading a great many 500 lb bombs and will still be able to destroy targets, thus generating perks for future sorties. Add to that, it is a fact that the most commonly dropped bomb by B-17s and B-24s in WWII was the General Purpose M43 500 lb bomb. M44 1,000 lb bombs were used with less frequency, and the M34 2,000 lb bombs were used even less often.

I also disagree that my proposals would not reduce suicide runs.

If a player must risk fighter perks to load 1,000 lb bombs, you can bet they will give due consideration to not losing those perks. If a player has no fighter perks, he will either have to take smaller bombs or actually manage to shoot down some aircraft to generate them. If they're fighting air to air, they're not flying suicide missions. Darn few perks are earned doing jabo only, and those perks are reduced if they do not land safely. Again, more motivation to survive.

In addition, hardening barracks and ordnance bunkers reduces the effectiveness of the attacker. Plus, limiting weight of bombs via a perk system means that one fighter cannot completely disable the entire offensive power of an airfield.

Another fact... Heavy bombers were primarily used as strategic weapons, attacking the enemy's ability to manufacture the goods required to fight a war. In AH2, heavy bombers are primarily used as tactical weapons. Sure, some guys will attack strats, but they do so largely to pad their scores.

If you differentiate between General Purpose bombs and Armor/Semi-armor Piercing bombs, you can reduce the mayhem of suicide attacks on CV groups. GP, high explosive bombs, with thin-wall casings were far less effective at sinking large combat ships. Simply because they were fused to detonate upon contact (if not, the case would rupture, which vastly reduced the explosive order of magnitude). By having different classes of bombs, you can greatly reduce the effectiveness of heavy bomber attacks on carrier groups. The lack of armor-piercing bombs for Heavy and Medium bombers will inhibit suicide, dive-bombing buffs simply because they will not be able to get the desired result without multiple sorties. Plus, if the 1k and larger bombs require perks... Good luck sinking a CV with GP 500 pounders.

Now, add that bombers designed for level bombing should only have bombs released by the bombardier, not the pilot. Also, only the bombardier should be able to open the bomb bay doors while in flight.

This shifts the burden to tactical fighters and light/dive bombers, just where it should be. These types should have access to armor-piercing bombs.

I'm sure these ideas would be difficult to code, but I'm equally sure as to their potential effectiveness at reducing both the number and frequency of suicide runs, as well as limiting the damage they can do. It will force players to organize to be successful.

Bottom line: If you reduce the effectiveness of suicide runs and add a tangible cost factor, you will reduce the number of suicide runs. Win-win.

As an added bonus, you introduce more realism, something many players will gladly embrace.

My regards,

Widewing

[ALF]

OK...I damint it...I cant read all 3 bizzilion post in this thread, but heres my 2¢
.
It would be a nice change to see suicide bomb runs being less effective, and it would be a welcome change (at least to test) to see living after your drop meaning something in the MA.  

It would also be an interesting gameplay addition if we had different types of bombs:  GP for general bombing of hangars and such, AP for taking out vehicles and ships, and perhaps incidiary for extra damage to buildings (prob just reduce damage from other bomb types as bomb screw over the city pretty well now anyhow).  This is prob a real beach to coad, so Im not holding my breath.   But  knowing nothing about how your code works, I would think the easiest way to make this work is to have a bombtype check in the damage routine that then adjusts pennetration and total damage by 'X' amount based on target -vs- bomb type.

On the same note, didnt AP bombs have less explosive or wiegh more than GP bombs?  Since AP rounds have big metal heads I would think they would have to have less explosives and thus be less effective against soft targets since you dont need an AP nose to go thru a wooden roofed building.

Ah well....enough of the ramblings

[Hades55]

***I think this the suggestion by HT is a really good one as it does address the porking problem.***

With all my respect to Widewing ( a very knowlegable person here and
usenet ) and HT.....

Perking is Limiting. Limits are not adds to gameplay and reality.

Giving More Options ads to game play and reality. MORE AI and MANED ACK.

They come to pork your field ? Defend it. Givem hell. Grab a 20mm and blow
them out of the sky.
(we need also 88s for High Bombers and Panzer Attacks).

More Fire, more War, more Gameplay, and because in fact It Was Like This
(read 3 posts before, the attack of Pierre Closterman) More Reality.

Perking dont attract players. More fire and war attract players. For this they
are here and pay for it.  And More, It Was Like this in reality.

Widewing is right about the strategic bombers.

They do low alt bombings because they have nothing better to do, so
they low alt porking fields.

We have wrong design here.

Strategic Bombers need strategic Targets. The solution Exists in the old AW.
Build Plane Factories in the back of every country (near HQ) and let strategic bombers do their job.
(lot of space to climb high).

Imaging all the hordes of spits climbing high to protect their lovely factory,
or no spit.  

Lot of Fun hidden here but not only.

Ah will become real Aces HIGH and more realistic because it was Like This
in reality. Then we will see real dogfights High for me109s jugs ponys and lightnings. They will fight where they was designed for. High.

AH as is it is,resembles a eastern front realism with low alt jabos be the kings.
We dont change this, we keep it, but we ADD the high alt war witch resembles
the western front (European), because It Was Like This in Reality.

Let the players choose where they will fight. The motivations exists.

Coad ?  not big deal. Just add some plane factories around HQ and let the lala and spit guys protect them.
Bomber guys will be very pleased to destroy them
No motivations, no war.

At ground a plus to the war in attack mode will be Mobile Artillery, every player commands 6 or 10 cannons in formation mode (code exists).
Lot of work for jabos but also for low alt fighters who want to protect artillery from jabos.
In defence mode a great add will be the 88s for high bombers protection ( Maned ) and for Tank defence.

With right motivations and right weapons you create a great war.
And you have a variety of options for every player  and more satisfaction for all
because It Was Like This in Reality.

[Kweassa]

Perking is Limiting. Limits are not adds to gameplay and reality.

 Quite the contrary.

 Certain logical limitations become very necessary for fixing certain undesirable attitudes the gamers show. In other words, it is the lack of limitations than compared to real life, that is behind the rise of the phenomena we call 'dweebism'. Game pilots are not limited by the fear of death - which causes erratic behavior on the part of the gamers to achieve their game goals. Therefore, a certain method of limiting their actions in some other manner can ultimately simulate (as a result, at least) the attitude of the pilots in the game to match real life more closely.

 It adds to gameplay and reality.

[Tilt]

I too can see several ways that perking ordinance loadouts can be made to discourage the suicide bomber and enable  the use of more modest bomb loads when no perks are available.................... ........

This does not discourage the suicide straffer though.........HT's proposal does negate the effectiveness of a suicide straffer and bomber.

I would also agree that manned ground to air defences should be greater than present................... manned gguns are good at this..........simply put there should be more .............much more  say 10 per airfield.

Further manned ground guns can be under camo....... and not high lighted with "hit me" pads under them.

IMO there should be more puffy ack than the two presently defencely located in the towns.

As for straffing to pork troops / supplies and ammo...........

Troop barracks at vehicle fields should be trebled if not trebled again...it should be virtually impossible for one or two fighter bombers to eradicate "infantry" as we can now.

Supplies should be a function of hangers......IMO if a C47 can launch then it should be allowed supplies.............. if a GV can launch then the jeep/m3 should be allowed to carry supplies.

Fuel is limited in its strat effectiveness any way.............

Ammo bunkers should be doubled and hardened........... (ammo bunkers do not have to burn....they can explode dramatically then smoke ( a little) a while.......)