Author Topic: UK Justice (Read 805 times)

Defiance · « **on:** October 30, 2001, 09:31:00 AM »

Hiya's,
Dunno if any none Brits here know about the "Tony Martin" case ?
Well today his sentence of Murder was reduced to Man Slaughter by the high court

Now he has been given a one year sentence for the new man slaughter charge

I myself would of give him a medal for killing the scum that was trying to rob his home, After all he's had to endure i feel ashamed our courts sentenced him in the first place

Why you may ask ? Well these are my reasons why he should not of been tried
Guys broke into his home with one main intent Theft and knowing how sadistic Thieves are here when caught out they think nothing mostly of kickin the crap outa ya then make an escape some seem to do too good a job of it and murder them to cover up
Seeing news and actually seeing an oap (old aged pensioner) with broken nose and cheek bone and fractures made me feel disgustingly sick, All too often here we hear the Governments getting tough on crime ! PHOOEY cases of Murder and OAP assualts where they recieve less than a 10 year sentence and serve 4 are getting more common here
One less piece of vermin on this planet i say
So what the thief was shot in the back, He should not of been doing what he was should he,
And before all you liberal anti-death guys/gals start flaming me, Just wait til someone you love or who is near to you is put in the circumstance/s as many nowadays are and then see what it's like
If Martin had not of shot the scum i wonder if the police would of been investigating yet another UK robbery with Murder involved ! By the way the case went i sure personally feel they would of been, And knowing UK Justice the perpertrator would never of been found or if luckily he/they were they would of got a 4 year cushy number at the taxpayers expense

I say good riddens to the SCUM and Hope Tony Martin can get on with his life and put this hehind him

I tell ya know if i was ever to meet a sick bas#tard that beat up an OAP i would beat the crap outa him and gladly do some time for it, We need to make a better stand at this sort of thing as well as all the stuff in the headlines now

Sorry for rant but i feel glad some sort of justice has been done, Even though i feel it shouldn't of been in the first place !

Have Fun

Def

Udie · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2001, 09:38:00 AM »

Damn he actually got sent to prison for a year for defending himself?!?!?! That's fluffied up man. All I can say is thank God I live in Texas. I hope for his sake that prisons in England aren't like prisons here in Texas, not a safe place to be a skinny white boy...

miko2d · « **Reply #2 on:** October 30, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Udie:
Damn he actually got sent to prison for a year for defending himself?!?!?! That's fluffied up man. All I can say is thank God I live in Texas. I hope for his sake that prisons in England aren't like prisons here in Texas, not a safe place to be a skinny white boy...

I am all for lawfully executing criminals under a slightest pretext, but there is a completely separate question of responcible gun ownership and use.
According to our and Britain's laws individuals do not have right of punishing criminals for breaking into their homes by killing them. That is prerogative of state.

Responcible use of weapons is in self-defence or defence of someone else. Unless the criminal was reaching for a weapon, I can hardly envision how shooting him in the back can be viewed as self defence.
That is a clear case of murder (even though I am sympathetic to the shooter) unless the defendant can show that he did not see cleary which way the robber was faced or was somehow confused (after being hit on the head, etc.).
This is most likely what happened and why the guy got off easily.

I've read a good article in one of NRA publication once about a guy who shot a thief in the dark ten times, most of that in the back.
The suggestion was that:
1. You need a light installed on your gun or a separate light so you are not shooting blind (especially being blinded by flashes of your own gun) and know where to shoot and when to stop.
2. You need to use ammo with good stopping power like expanding bullets instead of ball ammo so that you do not have perpetrator running around after one or two shots.

And of course you have to be ready/prepared to handle such situations.

miko

Defiance · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »

Hiya's,
I see your point in a way
But i see it as a lesser of two evils .....
He killed the guy doing wrong (that's certain cause he had no business breaking in)

So the owner certainly lives

The other scenario "could" of been as i say another break-in/assault or murder of the owner
Hope that makes sense

Have Fun

Def

miko2d · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2001, 10:21:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Defiance:
Hiya's,
I see your point in a way
But i see it as a lesser of two evils .....
He killed the guy doing wrong (that's certain cause he had no business breaking in)

In this particular case yes. But it would not work for the society in general because it would mean that people could kill anyone on their premices who they can deny inviting.

Whether it is a real robbery or staged murder, there would likely be no witnesses and no evidence of invitation. Just the word of a guy who killed the other one.

miko

Defiance · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2001, 10:36:00 AM »

Hiya's,
Yeah i understand about staged murders
But these guys went to a remote farmhouse not by mistake or needing directions, They were in the process of robbing the gaff knowing the only person liable to be there would more than likely be on his own

Have Fun

Def

Udie · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2001, 11:02:00 AM »

Miko,

There are "rules" to a clean shoot. I asked a cop once about the legality of shooting somebody in your house. He said that as long as you don't shoot them in the back your ok. Shooting them in the back though shows that they were not a clear and present threat to your security and can get you sent to prison.

If you ask me the government should be the last people to say wether somebody lives or dies. BUT

I don't want to turn this into a death penalty debate

easymo · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2001, 08:44:00 PM »

I lived in Fremont California for a while, back in the late 80,s. My neighbor there, walked into his bedroom one night and found an intruder. The man swung a gun up towards my neighbor( It was my neighbors own gun. The intruder had found it in the drawer of his waterbed.) My neighbor grabbed a ball bat and hit the man in the head, killing him.

My neighbor was tried for manslaughter. And given 20 years.

Don't move to the left coast udie

Defiance · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2001, 10:02:00 PM »

Hiya's,
Damn that's unbelievable
I feel for the guy
And to be in america which i always saw as a fair and more justly place

Makes me remember a case in uk when an intruder hurt himself and managed to sue for damages against the owner of the place he intended to rob
Unbelievable some sentences in this world

Have Fun

Def

Leslie · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2001, 11:11:00 PM »

Hi Defiance:

One time I asked a police Lieutenant about situations similar to the one above. He said, if someone enters your home for the purpose of burglary, for example, and the home is occupied, then that constitutes first degree robbery. The penalty for that in Alabama is the death penalty.

I believe the circumstances have a lot to do with how the law views it...self defense or no. Shooting a fleeing burglar in the back, after he is outside, would be more questionable than doing so in your house. It seems it would be justifiable if the intruder was going for a weapon...a kitchen knife, say.

Also, it makes a difference whether said intruder is a stranger or not. Shooting someone you have met before, could appear to be homicide to the police. Also, number of shots fired figure into the equation...that's why a shotgun is the best home self defense weapon there is. In just about any situation where a gun may be used for self defense, most people leave fast when they hear a shotgun racking up. This in itself may scare off intruders before any shots are fired. I hope I never have to find out. Never, ever, ever point a gun at something you don't intend to kill.

I agree with you concerning the strict gun control laws in Great Britain. Such laws place more importance on the possession of a gun, rather than on the whys and wherefores of why the gun was present. If that happened here in Alabama, and the intruder was inside the house, it would be seen as self defense. As the old cliche goes, I think I'd rather be judged by twelve, than buried by six.

Salute Defiance!
Salute Dragon Hawks!

Les
SC-Bama

StSanta · « **Reply #10 on:** October 31, 2001, 12:43:00 AM »

I saw a guy shoplifting once.

A great evildoer. An Evil One. I wish I had my Beretta semi-automatic shotgun so I could do the world a favour and remove this criminal from the world. I'd do a favour to society as well, saving tax payers money since there'd be no trial for this guy.

I also missed out on shooting a guy who stole a bicycle. Man, if I just had a rifle with a scope! I couldda dropped him with three rounds to the back.

I think what we need are more vigilante groups. More mobs. There sure wasn't any crime when those were around, and justice was swift and clear. All rights of an individual were respected, and only guilty people got hanged or beaten to death.

Hm, the guy outside is acting suspiciously. he is covering his face. Might be because of the severe wind and rain, but I can't be sure. With any luck he will move closer to my windows, allowing me to stab him with a big knife. With a little more luck I can stab him from behind.

Shooting someone in the back doesn't seem like a last ditch effort to save one's life. Breaking the law, one way or the other, should result in some kinda punishment. Unless the laws are utterly ridiculous. Like these anti-gun, anti-personal defense ones.

Leslie · « **Reply #11 on:** October 31, 2001, 05:17:00 AM »

Thank you for your reply St. Santa. Your wit is only equaled by your friendliness and good nature. Hehe..lol.

Les
SC-Bama

[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: SC-Bama ]

Daff · « **Reply #12 on:** October 31, 2001, 07:28:00 AM »

"He said that as long as you don't shoot them in the back your ok. Shooting them in the back though shows that they were not a and present threat to your security and can get you sent to prison."

Which is exactly what he did. The burglars tried to run away when confronted and he shot the guy in the back. He had also previously shot at people stealing an apple. The man is a nut case (which was part of the reason his sentence got turned around, due to diminished responsibility).

Daff

Defiance · « **Reply #13 on:** October 31, 2001, 08:40:00 AM »

Hiya's,
OK i will now be as plain as i can be

I Would rather see a "Nut" as you put him armed with a gun ALIVE after using it on a criminal (use Criminal even though he had'nt had a trial because he was in the "act" of committing a crime) in his dwelling than see yet another "Police are launching a murder hunt" on the TV

Have Fun

Def

After all that dead guy aint gonna do another break-in or worse is he

Dowding · « **Reply #14 on:** October 31, 2001, 11:21:00 AM »

You can use reasonable force to defend yourself in Britain.

If the burglar had been armed with a gun, there would be little problem.

If the burglar had been armed with a knife, it could be argued that the force was reasonable.

The burglar was unarmed and fleeing the scene, with his back to Martin. Although I've not seen all the evidence I disagree with the verdict of murder. But manslaughter is about right.

As for the guy deserving it for simlply breaking and entering - as far as I know, burgalry is not a captial offence in either the US or UK.