Author Topic: Dropping landing gear in close combat?  (Read 2510 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2006, 12:12:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Sorry Wilbus 'ol buddy, but the above is incorrect. F4Us deployed the main gear (not just the doors) as a dive brake, while the tail wheel remained up. There is a "Dive Brake" lever in the cockpit that lowers the main mounts only. F4Us used this to enable them to dive almost vertically on a bomb run. Using the gear as a dive brake, you were limited to 300 mph for lowering and must retract them before 400 mph. There was substantial leeway in these figures as pilots often deployed the Dive Brake (gear) at speeds close to 400 mph. You do, however, risk doing damage to the extension cylinder when deploying at high speeds.

My regards,

Widewing


Widewing,

By the -4 series, (have seen field mods on -1d's) the installation of an unloader valve was prominent in the "dive brake feature".  This enabled the dropping of the gear at any speeds to act as a speed brake, but at higher speeds, they never fully extend as the pressures required would cause damage.  As the speed decreased, the gear would further extend.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2006, 04:37:43 PM »
ok, grab you a dueling partner and go to the DA, both of you get in the same type of F4U series all be it -1 -1C -1D -4, both of you agree on a merge alt and commence to fighting..........now on the 1st fight, 1 of you when getting slow lower your gear.......when the other sees that you have lowered or started lowering your gear, he should rollout and extend............by the time he gets his gear back in, you will have gained 1K+ distance on him and can reset and merge again.........

now switch it up and you let him lower gear next flight. When you see him start lowering gear, you roll away and extend, as you are extending and while he is bringing his gear back in, you rev low G turn, holding your speed, you can then remerge taking him vertical, and make em flounder / send him to the Tower......

the Gear produces so much drag, that , by the time the other guy raises it again you can extend to 1K + and hit 300 IAS and fight on your terms bleeding his speed........

<-----would much rather use 4th notch of flaps or all out before ever lowering Gear, 1 can lower all flaps and raise them faster than you could lower &/or raise the gear............but every once and awhile especially when going over the top inverted, lowering the Gear will drop that nose straight down like a BOULDER.......

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Offline Chalenge

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2006, 07:21:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Sorry Wilbus 'ol buddy, but the above is incorrect. F4Us deployed the main gear (not just the doors) as a dive brake, while the tail wheel remained up. There is a "Dive Brake" lever in the cockpit that lowers the main mounts only. F4Us used this to enable them to dive almost vertically on a bomb run. Using the gear as a dive brake, you were limited to 300 mph for lowering and must retract them before 400 mph. There was substantial leeway in these figures as pilots often deployed the Dive Brake (gear) at speeds close to 400 mph. You do, however, risk doing damage to the extension cylinder when deploying at high speeds.
 


Ive read this in books written by guys that flew in the war and they wrote that this was standard practice dropping gear so the speed wouldnt build up in a dive. I also read they did not dive straight down but that steeper dives caused speed problems too so they used tape or paint marks on the canopy to show them the best angle. They would line the canopy line up with the horizon as best they could when they attacked.
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Offline Atoon

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2006, 08:06:55 PM »
I had a great 1on1 fight with an F4 last night, he used this tactic, and it gave him about 4 more turns before I lit him up like a roman candle on the 4th of july.

His response was to lift a spit16 & grab a friend in an la7 to try to avenge his death in a 2on1- the 2 being in EZ mode planes & me in my same ole yakU. I drug them to my base-  and tried to fight the 2 of them in ack but it wasnt going to work as I was almost outta fuel, I had to belly land into a hangar to save my skin. Part luck - part skill---- all fun:D

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Offline Kweassa

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2006, 04:08:19 AM »
Quote
It is a perfect way to slow up one's aircraft during dive bombing. Several vets I know who flew the Hog discussed doing this to avoid compression in a dive.


 I don't argue that they'd not have used the landing gears in such manner. It's perfectly understandable during divebomb runs - many divebombers had airbrakes and under specific procedures they'd set up their attack runs and extend dive flaps.

 The one I'm skeptical about is like rv6's original title - "Dropping landing gears in close combat"
 
 I'm wondering about the grand average here, not just seasoned pilots, not just rookies.

 For every tale of grand combat, such as some spectacular fights like between Malan vs Moelders, there is also a tale of the norms, where pilots forget they had flaps down, they pushed the wrong button, forgot the procedures required, etc etc.. The reports from one leader remarks on his group's P-38s as 'not suitable for combat for average pilots' for the reason that it is much too complicated most pilots, and specifically mentions not every pilot can be skilled enough, and plenty of similar reports for many planes, all indicating that keeping the controlling procedures simple and the combat doctrine straight-forward should always be more preferred than trying to teach each pilot some exotic moves.

 Again, since some folks were nice enough to post actual events that happened I do not doubt some pilots did use 'airbrake' methods during combat - although my take on it is, like Karnak speculated, such cases were limited to either against a mostly a stationary target(crawling up behind a target in night fighters) or a perfectly set-up BnZ run (where the target is unaware of impending doom).

 However, during 'close combat'? Raising gears up and down, while fiddling with flaps up and down, at the same time changing throttle up and down?

 His eyes gazing at the target, the gunsight, what's around him, and the individual control guages/indicators/levers/buttons for such mechanisms at the same time?

 The target breaks hard at 3G, the attacker tries to follow him, pulling a 3G turn with both hands and then cutting throttle to slow down, letting go of the stick with his left hand, and then locating the flap levers/buttons, engage combat flaps, sees the impending overshoot, his left hand fiddling with first the landing gear doors, then the main landing gear themselves, oops, the speed dropping too fast, have to retract/reset all of what he did previously, raise flaps up, raise landing gears, close landing gear doors, and at the same time maneuver the plane with just his right hand to the stick, trying to follow the jinking enemy.... and then he has to repeat everything again if he sees it likely he might overshoot again, all during a slow-speed scissors fight?

 How many left hands does the pilot have?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 04:14:05 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Karnak

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2006, 10:20:10 AM »
So far as I could tell, there was no intention or expectation that lowering the gear on the Mossie would make it more manuverable.  The only expectation was that it would act as an airbrake to help prevent overshoots.

So on that account, no, I don't think it was used in close, manuvering fights.
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Offline Widewing

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2006, 11:52:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
I However, during 'close combat'? Raising gears up and down, while fiddling with flaps up and down, at the same time changing throttle up and down?

How many left hands does the pilot have?


For the F4Us, the throttle lever, prop lever, mixture, dive brake lever and flap controls were within inches of each other. Very little hand motion was required to operate any of them.

On the F6Fs, the above controls were even more closely grouped, with cooler door and cowl flap controls in the same area.

A smart pilot would have memorized the locations of these various controls and could find each of them blindfolded. Thus, they would never have to look inside the cockpit during a close-in fight.

In contrast, a P-38 had its flap lever on the right side of the cockpit....

My regards,

Widewing
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Offline Edbert1

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2006, 01:07:39 PM »
I will not attest to the veracity of the claim but I read once that the F4U's used gull wings in order to have short landing gear. The designers insisted on short gear for two reasons; one, that they could be strong enough for carrier duty but also so they could be used as air-brakes. The only way to have usually short and strong gear AND a huge propellor was with gull-wings.

Offline stangster

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« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2006, 05:46:33 PM »
Sounds like he was trying to land

Offline Oldman731

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2006, 07:12:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
Would copy it here, but my copy is at home.

OK, so now I am home, and had the time to copy the account here.  Not only is it relevant for the dropped-gear issue, but I think we've all had fights like this.  AH does a pretty good job of simulating real life.

- oldman


From JG 26 - Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, by Donald L. Caldwell (Ivy Books, New York 1991), ISBN 0-8041-1050-6 (First Ballentine Edition, June 1993), at page 276:

[The following occurred on the afternoon of September 17, 1944 - the first day of Operation Market-Garden]:

The Third Gruppe [of JG26] also fought a battle with Mustangs, with ruinous consequences for itself.  In mid-afternoon, Major Mietusch assembled about fifteen Bf 109s of his scattered command and headed for the landing zones, climbing all the way.  The weather had taken a turn for the worse, and there was a continuous layer of thin cloud at 15,000 feet.  The Germans climbed through it, and then, while above the Dutch-German border, Mietusch spotted a squadron of P-51s below them.  He radioed, “Otter Mietusch, I am attacking!” and dove through the cloud.  His first burst of fire destroyed the Number 4 plane of the trailing cover flight.  Oblt. Schild hit the Number 2 Mustang’s drop tank, and it dove away trailing a solid sheet of flame.  The events of the next few minutes are best stated in the words of the leader of that P-51 flight, Lt. William Beyer of the 361st Fighter Group’s 376th Squadron:

*          *          *

I was the flight leader at the tail end of the squadron.  We had flown back and forth between checkpoints for a couple of hours.  My wingmen apparently got tired of looking around for enemy aircraft.  Only by the grace of God did I happen to look behind us at that particular moment, because in no more than a couple of seconds the enemy would have shot the whole flight down.

I saw about fifteen German fighters closing fast with all their guns firing.  I immediately broke 180 degrees and called out the enemy attack.  My Number 4 man went down in flames, and my wingman got hit and spun out.  I headed straight back into the German fighters and went through the whole group, just about in the center of them.  We were separated by only a few feet...

I immediately made another 180-degree turn, picked out one of them, and started to chase it.  The rest of the fighters zoomed back up into the clouds and disappeared.  We made many violent high-G maneuvers with wide open throttle.  When I started to close and fire, I noticed that his plane seemed to have stopped in the air.  I had to decide whether to shoot and run, or to try to stop my plane.  I cut throttle, lowered flaps, and dropped my wheels - I still kept closing.  I had to fishtail and do flat weaves to stay behind him.  This maneuver was repeated three times, and on one occasion I almost cut his tail off, we were so close...

Then we started into steep dives.  The last one was at around 1,000 feet with flaps down.  This last maneuver was deadly and nerve-racking.  He went straight down toward the ground, hoping I couldn’t pull out.  If I pulled out early, he could have come in behind me, so I stayed with him.  If we had had our wheels down when we pulled out, we would have been on the ground.

It was after this pullout that I finally was able to get my sights lined up and fire at him.  I must have hit him with the first burst, because he kept turning and went into the ground and broke up.  Knowing the caliber of this German pilot, I am sure that if I had taken the time to get off some shots when he was slowing down he could have possibly shot me down or made a getaway.  My other combat victories were not nearly as spectacular as this one, and it is with this in mind that I can recall it so vividly.

*          *          *

Lt Beyer’s victim was Klaus Mietusch.  Mietusch was one of the most fascinating individuals in the Geschwader’s history.  He was a career officer, had joined the Geschwader in 1938, and was its senior pilot in length of service when he died at age twenty-five.  His early combat career was marked by a seemingly endless series of failures and frustrations.  A member of the successful 7th Staffel under Muencheberg, he did not come into his own until he succeeded to the command and led it on detached assignment in Russia in 1943.  He was the opposite of the typical extroverted, self-confident fighter pilot.  He compensated for what he believed to be his lack of ability by an act of will.  According to Priller, Mietusch’s combat motto was, “Bore in, until the enemy is as large as a barn door in your sights.”  Again quoting Priller, duty as Mietusch’s wingman was an “unforgettable experience.”  Mietusch was shot down ten times and was wounded at least four times.  He was said never to have turned down a mission, and he had logged an incredible 452 combat sorties at the time of his death.  His seventy-two victories brought the award of the Oak Leaves to his Knights’s Cross, two months after his death.

Offline Chalenge

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2006, 12:15:07 AM »
Edbert I dont know where you get your information but its transmemberfied somehow. Im hoping Widewing will tell you the gull wings were designed to reduce drag at the point at which they were mounted to the fuselage and that the landing gear is what it is because of the horsepower used at the front end of it all and the weight of the plane. I dont know that the landing gear was designed from the outset to be dive brakes and right now I think it just happened that they excelled at it. Id like to hear from someone that knows for sure.
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Offline Saxman

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2006, 09:00:48 AM »
The intent of the gull wings was to accomodate the giant propeller, which would have forced the Corsair's landing gear to be too long to be practical for carrier ops. Vought designed the gull wings as a work-around to be able to provide ground clearance for the prop without having to lengthen the landing gear struts.

Drag reduction was an unintended bonus.
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Offline Oldman731

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2006, 10:28:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
The intent of the gull wings was to accomodate the giant propeller, which would have forced the Corsair's landing gear to be too long to be practical for carrier ops. Vought designed the gull wings as a work-around to be able to provide ground clearance for the prop without having to lengthen the landing gear struts.

Drag reduction was an unintended bonus.

This is my understanding as well.

- oldman

Offline Edbert1

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2006, 12:08:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert1
The only way to have usually short and strong gear AND a huge propellor was with gull-wings.

Quote
Originally posted by Chalenge
Edbert I dont know where you get your information but its transmemberfied somehow.  

Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Vought designed the gull wings as a work-around to be able to provide ground clearance for the prop without having to lengthen the landing gear struts.

Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
This is my understanding as well.


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Offline Widewing

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2006, 11:28:03 AM »
Here's a photo of an F4U-1A at Peleliu. It has just come off of a bomb run. Note that the main gear is down, but the tail wheel is up. This is the configuration when the dive brakes are selected.



My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 11:30:11 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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