Author Topic: Dropping landing gear in close combat?  (Read 2496 times)

Offline rv6

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« on: July 12, 2006, 05:53:22 AM »
Hi all..
A question that bothered me for a while now, and just saw it happen yesterday.

Had a great 1 v 1 engagement with a guy I consider to be a "Top-Gun" in the game.  Was lucky enough to stay out of his gunsite to the bitter end.

He was in an F4-C .. and he was GOOD!  He walked that damn thing around a slow stall turn like a VW in a parking lot.

In the end, we were both literally cockpit to cockpit, nose-up, stall horn blaring, wings rattling, with no collision. (sheer luck).

I could clearly see his flaps full down.. (I can understand why you'd do that)..

But, also saw HIS LANDING GEAR DOWN??

I know that this is a technique (must be for this particular old vet to be using it),,  but what in heck does dropping your gear in close ACM do for the better??

I mean, when I try it, it just puts additional drag on the plane, kills e bigtime, and makes manuevering harder..  (I fly real planes too, and gear retracted is the way to go in my humble opinion)..

Thanks for any enlightenment ~

RV6

Offline Spatula

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 05:56:43 AM »
heh, that is an old trick to employ for deliberate rapid deceleration, usually for forcing an enemy to overshoot, or to avoid yourself overshooting if your behind. The Corsair (F4u) has the ability to drop wheels at about 290 or so - at least in AH, im sure there is historic validity in this too?
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Offline DamnedRen

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 06:01:04 AM »
Corsairs use landing gear as an airbrake. You can toss it out up to around 350 mph (been a while) without it departing your plane. Add some flaps and she'll turn on a dime.

Dump gear in a spitty at 350 and it will depart your plane before it gets all the way down. :) Same for just about every other plane in AH2....

Hope this helps.

Offline bozon

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 06:30:24 AM »
Quote
I mean, when I try it, it just puts additional drag on the plane, kills e bigtime

That's the purpose, dumping E.
However, once the fight turns into a tall contest, the gears are supposed to increase stall speed as they produce pure drag and no lift. You should retract the gears when you've reached the stall.

In theory at least. I haven't tested it so I don't know if that is what actually happens in the game. The way some people use it you'd mistake the F4U to be a fixed gear plane. I'd also expect some severe heavy nose effect when they are out at high speeds, but it's not like that from what I remember.
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Offline Kweassa

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2006, 06:39:57 AM »
Quote
I'm sure there is historic validity in this too?


 I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.

 Ofcourse, I could be wrong - Who knows? Maybe out of all those thousands of fights by thousands of pilots in the war such a thing actually did happen. But I personally believe it to be another one of those 'technically possible' stuff that practically never happens in real life.

 Landing gears are one of the most important mechanism onboard a plane. Would any pilot ever risk being in a such a hectic fight, requiring all the 'technical possibilities' to be used to gain advantage during combat? What if the landing gears are destroyed? Damaged? Jammed? Unevenly deployed?

 In AH, ditching and belly landing is a breeze, but all of those so frequent fatal accidents involving vintage war planes in many airshows proves that in real life any kind of emergency landing is dangerous to the max. I doubt that any real life combat pilot would ever risk deploying landing gears in such a manner.

Offline Morpheus

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 07:29:28 AM »
They werent used as an air brake because someone said "lets try it" and it worked.

They were designed as an air brake. But, I do think that the pilot had far more to worry about in a close air combat situation (IRL) and far more to do than worry about raising and lowering the gear.  To get that slow against most japanese fighters back then, wasnt a good idea. I did have a film of them doing ground attack runs with gear down. Which I bleive is what they were mostly used for... Ground attack.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 07:32:21 AM by Morpheus »
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Offline Oldman731

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2006, 07:43:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.

 Of course, I could be wrong - Who knows?

Heh.  You are.  At least once, that is.

If you have a copy of Caldwell's "JG26", look up Klaus Mietusch in the index, and go to Beyer's account of shooting him down.  Mietusch was the commander of the 3d Gruppe of JG26 (the one that flew 109s), claimed to have 75 kills at the time of his death, and was in a 1v1 against Beyer's P-51 when Beyer dropped his gear to avoid the overshoot - just as in AH2.

Would copy it here, but my copy is at home.

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Offline DREDIOCK

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2006, 07:56:39 AM »
Just for the record.
Anyone fighting against me has my absolute and complete permission to use this tactic.

I wish more would. I could triple the amount of kills I get.:D
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Offline Simaril

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2006, 07:59:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
They werent used as an air brake because someone said "lets try it" and it worked.

They were designed as an air brake. But, I do think that the pilot had far more to worry about in a close air combat situation (IRL) and far more to do than worry about raising and lowering the gear.  To get that slow against most japanese fighters back then, wasnt a good idea. I did have a film of them doing ground attack runs with gear down. Which I bleive is what they were mostly used for... Ground attack.



Saw a F4U-1 training film, i think at Zeno's warbirds. In addition to the "push this then pull that" part of the orientation, the film emphasized "never get it slow."


I figure that alone shows how early and how hard the need for speed was emphasized for USN and USMC aviators.


Comes down to the same thing we see for the 190 series -- in AH planes that were MEANT for energy attcks from unforgiving advantage end up stall fighting on the AH deck. Kinda makes the "how they did it in real life" part less applicable
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Offline AKDogg

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2006, 08:13:28 AM »
The landing gear on hog can be deployed up to 404 mph.  Anything over that will cause failure.  It should only be used for slowing down rapidly or in barrel rolls, not so substained turns.  With landing gear up in flat turn, u can out turn most spits and even come close to the hurri with full flaps and wep on.  U will be doing like 80-100 mph.
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Offline Vudak

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2006, 09:00:39 AM »
I've been playing around with this whole landing gear thing for awhile now, trying to master it, but basically just dumping it in all sorts of situations and getting shot down numerous times in the process (best way to learn what will and will not work).

It can certainly come in handy.

There's really nothing like going into a steep, fast dive against a plane that probably thinks you're the average Corsair that's going to try and run away, only to drop that gear, pull a hard breaking turn up, and roll around onto them.  If your persuer isn't expecting this they're in trouble.  And in the MA, you really wouldn't expect this if you didn't know who you were fighting at first...  Kinda like taking advantage of the fact that people expect you to be timid.

On the same token when merging with a Spit or anything really that you'd expect to turn hard at the merge, if you drop it during your merge you can often gain a good angle on it and suprise them them.

Using this tactic does require a fairly good ability to handle the plane at very low speeds, however, as you are basically giving your opponent the E advantage right at the merge, and if they notice, they're going to rope you.  However, given the speed discrepancies at the merge (you should be much faster) you can often manage to get just slower enough that you can out or equal merge him without giving him TOO much of an E advantage, and you should still be able to hold with him if he takes it vertical after that, assuming you have a decent grasp of how to control that bird well slow.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts a month or so into trying to learn this new trick.

The Corsair really does amaze me though.  It's one of the few planes that really can go into a 1v1 against any other fighter whether you're higher, lower, or co-alt and have many, many options to win.  It's hard to say that about many planes.
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Offline SirLoin

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2006, 09:12:18 AM »
Rv6...Check out this thread (in Help & Training forum) for some films on dropping gear in Corsair.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181670


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Offline Wilbus

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2006, 09:15:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
I sincerely doubt there's any 'historic validity' in dumping gears for combat purposes.

 Ofcourse, I could be wrong - Who knows? Maybe out of all those thousands of fights by thousands of pilots in the war such a thing actually did happen. But I personally believe it to be another one of those 'technically possible' stuff that practically never happens in real life.

 Landing gears are one of the most important mechanism onboard a plane. Would any pilot ever risk being in a such a hectic fight, requiring all the 'technical possibilities' to be used to gain advantage during combat? What if the landing gears are destroyed? Damaged? Jammed? Unevenly deployed?

 In AH, ditching and belly landing is a breeze, but all of those so frequent fatal accidents involving vintage war planes in many airshows proves that in real life any kind of emergency landing is dangerous to the max. I doubt that any real life combat pilot would ever risk deploying landing gears in such a manner.


Well, in reality the F4u didn't dump the landing gears as an airbrake. They dumped the landing gear doors. The gears stayed in. In AH the dive brake and gears are situated in on the same key and does the same thing in order to make it easier.

Having them dumped in a close combat wouldn't really give you anything IMO, just take away more E and reduce the turning ability.

It does come in handy when slowing down though.
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Offline rogerdee

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2006, 09:15:47 AM »
there is  a  acont  of  a beaufighter using this in 1941  t keep behind  a enemy bomber  it a stalking. but that was to stop him ovr shooting
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Offline SirLoin

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Dropping landing gear in close combat?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2006, 09:24:44 AM »
Dumping the gear gets your flaps out faster & thus you can gain angles.(or avoid nme bullets)..And when u get that last notch of flaps out in F4u,you can out-turn pretty much anything.

Airbrakes on Corsair acts like a wep-boost for flaps.

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