IL-2: Oleg's explainations about roll rates.

[Creamo]

Fscott- Take all the pix, arguments, add arrows, roadkill, a inside joke on StSanta being broke but wanting to buy a stupid fuk WWII helmet = a laugh.

I wont say Olegs boxed game is the next coming of free potatos and single malt scotch for all Americans, but did that help?

If that didn't seem clear... refer to the God "You guys are total studmuffin/geeks" section.  

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]

[Fishu]

Why theres such witch hunt mentality going on here?
Would it be better if IL-2 wouldn't exist?
Remember how some of todays AH players were "burning the witch" when AH came first time and they thought WB is the only one?

If some people are enthusiac of IL-2, why not to let them be?
No need to go talk crap of a game you haven't even tried or just tried for short time.
Theres been many wrong claims of IL-2 by those witch hunters.

It is still beta, like AH was well over a year ago. (and as I understand, it is of first beta and currently they're going on at 0.04 or so)

[Creamo]

Fishu, I like Il2.

 It's the "Your heads are in the Sand" anti-AH posts that are getting the flack.

We went through this prior to WWIIOL, and we should not laugh once again for a boxed sim?

These anti-AH guys with a deep desire to say "I Told You So!" clogging the BBS reap what they ask for ten-fold.

Il2 is cool.

[Hristo]

Tard

[Russian]

Hmm correct me if I'm wrong but did Oleg said he's thinking about creating online game? This is crarry  

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Creamo:
Pilot Strength? Arrows, Diagrams?

God you guys are total studmuffin/geeks, and whats the stinger is, you can't defend that hard, gay, plain truth!

Good Lord.

Borrow StSantas rent, I mean wacky WWII helmet, and just geek the fuk out.

Fools.

reach for those meds you like to froth about creamo...maybe double your perscription..

[Pongo]

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
Aces has atrificially dampend down Feel/Roll/stick imputs to compensate for lag..
THE ONLY THING i dont understand is WHY!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deez, why don't you tell us why? You're the one who keeps fabricating false and deragatory statements about our flight model and motives. Oh wait, you already have told us why.

Perhaps the reason we model stick forces is because we think it's an important characteristic? Throw that out and in theory, the Zero would outroll the F6F at 350 mph. In practice, it did not. If you think that's a better way to do it, you're entitled to that opinion. Just don't issue it by making stuff up about what we do and why and then state it as fact.

--------------------

Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

"
looks like someone understood fundimentaly why the 109g2 in IL2 handles a lot differently then the one in AH quite awhile ago...

[niklas]

The key point about roll rates is that Oleg's team doesn't model "compression" the way most of the modern flightsims do.

He simply doesn't model the "stick load" as, for example, in WB, where flying Ki-43 at certain speed you can move stick in any direction with no reaction. In Il-2 stick is mechanically connected to control surfaces. So, you can easily move the stick to a position what could demand a 40-50kg force in RL.

NACA roll rate charts were tested with standard ~20kg force applied to stick. I bet that pilots like Ivan Kozhedub (who could cross himself with a 32-kg weight) were able to apply up to maybe 50-60kg to stick. So, imagine that we are all weight-lifters and bodybuilders in IL-2.

IL-2 basically simulate maximum stick deflection LIKE AH!!! If you watch the ailleron deflection of a 109 at high speeds in AH, you´ll see that the maximum deflection is reduced!!
IL-2 and AH do the calculation in a different way, but the result or let´s say the basic approch to simulate the result is the same.

I´ve a report here what describes exactly  how NACA did flight tests of ailleron characteristics. It´s name is "Naca procedure for flight tests of aileron characteristics of airplanes".

some quotes:
"Aileron contorl forces
...
Forece recorders or indicators from which only the maximum force that occurred during a manoeuvrer can be obtained are unsatisfactory because the force required to deflect the ailerons abruply almost always exceeds the steady force required to hold the ailerons deflected on account of control-system inertia. In most naca flight tests forces are recorded by an automatically recording instrument synchronized with the rolling -velocity recorder. When this system is not used, however, it has been found that good resurlts may be obtained by using a force indicator held between the pilots hand and the stick or wheel. The pilot (or observer) reads the indicated force required to hold the contorl deflected. Errosrs encountered in the indicator mehtod are fairly small, because the ailoer hinge moments remain essentially constant as long as the rolling velocity is near its maximum value"
"General suggestions
Aileron strength limitations
...
With modern highspeed airplanes having highly balanced ailerons or booster-type controls, however, the possiblillity of breaking the ailerons or permanently deforming the wing structure is greatly increased - particularly in lateral control tests when a pilot may attempt to obtain a specified deflection of the ailerons regardless of accompanying control forces"

In simple words: you´ll always find a method to deflect aillerons fully, even at 500mph - BUT the question is whether your wing design takes damage. If so, the rollrate at this speed is maybe very good in a single test fight,  but useless in a combat situation - maybe even dangerous if structural damage occurs.

niklas

[Fishu]

Niklas,

Talking of that, one propeller passenger plane went down like that almost.
Wing froze, they entered into spin and dive.
Pilot tried to pull up, but instead tail gave up and was tore away due to excessive forces put in it.

[gatt]

Oh man, I wish I could talk about it ... compressibility and roll/climb rates ...  

Uhmmm, someone is knocking on my door ...  

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Tuomio:
Compression, as ive understood,is modeled. Compression means, that you reach speed, where your aeliron movements doesent have any effect to the plane roll/whatever. If you reach 100% deflection when you compress, it has no affect to your plane or only very slight. In AH you can reach it easily in p38, but jug breaks up before that speed.


[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Tuomio ]

Obviously someone who's never done testing in AH on the P38 and P47.  

I tested these two A/C exclusively for our last TOD...jug goes about 80 mph faster in a dive before losing aileron control, and yes, in one piece.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Swoop:
um.....anyone got a link to a translator that handles russian?

 It may be better for you (and the whole US audience and Oleg himself, considering he wants to sell his game here too) that you cannot read the russian site. Not only is Oleg even more arrogant, self-righteous and overbearing in Russian then he is in English, the term he uses to refer to the western audience is very derogatory.

 To parafrase poster on this board "you can take a guy out of communism but you cannot take communism out of a guy"...

 I am sure the game will be great though.

 miko

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]

[JG5_Jerry]

Miko - that's just a daft thing to say. I've met Oleg, and the way you've described him is just waaaaay off the mark.

[Boroda]

Miko, Oleg is an interesting person.
 
Russian Warbirders were introduced ot IL-2 team in Feb, 1999, when they had only a 3D engine and a very simple FM, and we had a chance to talk a little at Moscow Airshow this August.

From my short experience of personal communication with him I can say that he is extremely self-confident and doesn't care much about his opponent's point of view. It's almost impossible to argue with him. Hehe, it's his game and he has the right to do so   But there is absoulutely no reason for your "communism" remark. Hehe, sometimes he is accused of trusting German sources too much  

If you red the thread I posted - you'll see that Russian WB community has many questions to Oleg, and looks like we are the only group there that is very far from being "cheerleaders".

As for "roll-rates" or "pilot's strength and fatigue" - I finaly decided that I don't understand what Oleg's trying to say, and how this things are modeled or not. The final flight model will be just "reality, given to us through sences". Forget it and be happy.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by JG5_Jerry:
Miko - that's just a daft thing to say. I've met Oleg, and the way you've described him is just waaaaay off the mark.

I gues what I ment to say was "Oleg sounds more arrogant, self-righteous and overbearing in Russian then he does in English".
 Obviously the words "Oleg is" were not semantically correct to use because person's character does not really change when he switches to another language.

 I am sure Oleg is a very nice person and even if he were really arrogant and overbearing, he's earned my respect anyway.

  You were lucky to meet him personally but I've just read his posts there in his native language and they were the basis of my statement.
 I believe that someone's opinion of him would in no way improve based on that russian board, especially if the reader is a westerner. That is why I did not volunteer to translate the posts.


Boroda: But there is absoulutely no reason for your "communism" remark. Hehe, sometimes he is accused of trusting German sources too much
 This remark had nothing to do with the technical issue discussed or sources used and was not directed towards Oleg (only) but towards many people in the community using that russian-language board. Including you, BTW - it was your post that originated the topic and introduced the term in question.  
 You justly express your irritation that some idiots among western audience (when incapable of coming up with a decent refutal in a techical argument and too lazy to do research and come back later) start throwing around stereotypes like "Stalin, Siberia, backward russians, white bears, etc." After all, russian science and technology can stand proud and is second to none in it's accomplishments (though built on bones and blood of millions of innocent victims).
 
 At the same time you (and Oleg) use a term of bolshevics origin referring to us that is analogous to using "nazi" when referring to germans or "commies" when referring to russians.

 It strikes me as a surprise that modern russians - whose country suffered most from communism - would use communist terminology designed by communist propagandists for the murdering mob when talking about westerners, especially when talking about purely technical disagreement. After all, there is supposedly no longer class struggle to the death between Russia and the West.

 I hope that people there are just using that term without thinking much and it does not mean any real hostility, but it is still good (IMO) that some westerner cannot read the board and get upset like I was.

 P.S. Why on earth would you call yourself "commissar", especially in russian where it is not exotic meaningless rank? I understand this is only a game, but isn't there too much evil associated with this word in Russian.
 My grand-grandmother actually was one.  

 miko