Author Topic: I say let them shoot it out  (Read 1892 times)

Offline MrCoffee

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I say let them shoot it out
« on: July 18, 2006, 02:12:55 AM »
Lebanon has no oil? Or wmd, neither does iraq but thats besides the point.

Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2006, 02:57:36 AM »
Heres my take on the situation.

Hezbollah has been attacking Israel.  Israel attacks Lebanon in an effort to punish them for not supressing Hezbollah.  Hezbollah, with help from Iran, attacks an Israeli ship with a missle.  The U.S. is backing Israel, in hopes that Israel with its brand new F-16Is (what a coincidence) will strike Irans nuclear facilities.  But Israel can't locate alot of Irans nuclear facilities.  

I would be willing to bet that the U.S. has special forces in Iran right now, trying to locate those nuclear facilities.  We might see some U.S. bunker busting bombs loaded on Israels F-16Is here pretty soon.

Offline BigGun

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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2006, 11:41:26 AM »
Might have few wrinkles in it, but not bad plan.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2006, 12:05:44 PM »
I support aQuaShriMps vision :cool:

Iran is going to get the treatment :cry
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2006, 01:01:44 PM »
My wife, who was born, raised and educated in Iran, been to Isreal, Lebanon...has this take...

Asking the Lebanese "army" to take up arms against hesbulshizzle, is like asking the US Marines (a federal force) to move on the Ca National guard (a local force) to the folks in that area....

Could you imagine a foreign govt insisting Americans take up arms against each other?

Keep in mind here in the US separation of church & state is supposed to occur, but in the mid east the two are married. Some of us vote for 1 party, they vote for who represents their beliefs... lots of them believe Israel is evil, they did live under Israeli occupation, we didn't.

Hezbollah, to the average Lebanese, is relative to a radical wing of the republican / democratic party, they have about 20 duly elected members of the Parliament that influence official policies and Hezbollah spends a lot of $$ in the poor areas building schools / feeding people. A tactic to recruit members, create loyalty for sure, but not unlike what our own politicians do with 'pork' and campaign promises.

Also keep in mind, many of the military age men taking up arms with Hezbollah grew up under Israel's "brutal" occupation, all they know is hate fueled by rhetoric of clerics and $$ from Iran / Syria. No strongly worded e-mail from the UN is going to erase a lifetime of hate.

Imagine if your dad/brother was swooped up off the street by Israel, or any occupation army, and detained for 10+ years with no due process, charges, or word on his well being, supposedly a common occurrence when Israel was in charge... You'd grow up pissed too, join with others and even take up arms to defend yourself against it ever happening again. You might even snatch someone to trade for your family member since there's no process in place for justice.

So my wife asks, who are the real terrorists? because the media or govt says "they are terrorists", it's true?  when Israel snatches someone, the Arab media reports it as a terrorist action, CNN calls it a terrorist "arrest".

Basically it's ok for our friends to cross borders & kidnap, I mean arrest, people.. but when our non friends do it, its terrorism.

When a whack-o takes out an abortion doctor here in the US, the Arab media reports it as a terrorist attack by radical republicans... My wife thought the Calif Minutemen were an armed terrorist militia killing Mexicans...as reported by the Arab media. We ask why the Lebanese army doesn't disarm Hezbollah, they wonder why the US military doesn't dis-arm the Minutemen or terrorist repubs / dems.

And US gangs to the Arab media; armed terrorist militias who roam the streets, with their "war lord" leaders.. why doesn't the US military move to dis-arm these terrorist groups inside the US?? who every day kill innocent Americans?.. the Arabs don't understand how we can lecture them about disarming militias, when we don't.

Its all about the rhetoric.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2006, 01:17:44 PM »
The UN isn't sending strongly worded emails to Hezbollah. They are denouncing Israel though.

All about rhetoric? Not hardly.

It is all about who is the aggressor, and the aggressor ain't Israel.

The gangs here should be taken care of by law enforcement. Our hog tied legal system prevents that.

But the gangs here are not going to Canada or Mexico and blowing up mass transit buses and pizza parlors.

It just ain't all the same, regardless of the excuses made by some.

Understand, I have nothing personal against you or your wife, I'm just not buying the idea that good or evil, right or wrong, is all a matter of perspective and rhetoric.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Sandman

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I say let them shoot it out
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2006, 01:22:47 PM »
Peace, Propaganda, & the Promised Land

Over an hour long... enjoy. Tracks right along with what x0847Marine had to say.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 02:02:49 PM by Sandman »
sand

Offline Gryffin

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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2006, 01:27:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by x0847Marine


Excellent post. I am currently staying in the US and I am constantly amazed at how different the coverage of the palestinian situation is.

Back home we get news coverage showing both sides to be as bad as each other, but it seems like here you would never hear a news story about the israeli army bulldozing palestinian people's houses with them inside, or any of the other atrocities that seem to be a daily fact for people living under israeli rule.

Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2006, 01:45:28 PM »
Very informative 0847 Marine.  You gave me a new perspective on it.

Now if I were a political member in Israel, I would try to use Lebanons religious beliefs in my favor.  After a particularly brutal series of airstrikes, or a ground invasion, I would broadcast to the Lebanese people a couple of messages

(1) Why isn't your god protecting you?
(2) You have made your god angry by attacking your neighbor (Israel).  Now he is punishing you.

Its not enough to just bomb people.  One has to break their will and morale.

Offline Skuzzy

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I say let them shoot it out
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2006, 01:50:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gryffin
Excellent post. I am currently staying in the US and I am constantly amazed at how different the coverage of the palestinian situation is.

Back home we get news coverage showing both sides to be as bad as each other, but it seems like here you would never hear a news story about the israeli army bulldozing palestinian people's houses with them inside, or any of the other atrocities that seem to be a daily fact for people living under israeli rule.
Our, so-called, news is all about ratings.  This leads to exploitation and our reporters have had many years to develop thier craft.  Unfortunately, too many people actually believe what the reporters say.

I have always detested the one-sided opinionated perspective spin the media has.  The way they present thier opinions as fact is another art form they have gotten very good at.
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2006, 02:04:16 PM »
but it seems like here you would never hear a news story about the israeli army bulldozing palestinian people's houses with them inside, or any of the other atrocities that seem to be a daily fact for people living under israeli rule.
====
I dont agree with this, if your talking about the US media, I have always felt the Israelis got unfair and misleading treatment by the mainstream american news media.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Neubob

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I say let them shoot it out
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2006, 02:33:19 PM »
Yeah, it's really all about the rhetoric, the spin and the ratings. Other than that, there is total parity in the middle east. People are people and other than geography, there is no difference.

I pose this question:

If the Middle east was composed of 95% Jews, separated into various nations of varying wealth, and 5% Muslims, all concentrated on one piece of land and effectively surrounded, can anyone imagine the Jews supporting (whether passively or actively) the creation and implementation of suicide bomebers in that one isolated Muslim enclave? Can anyone image the Jews creating 'government parties' that not only promote but also actually carry out random rocket attacks on strategically useless targets, all for the purpose of instilling fear in the enemy that they outnumber 20 to 1.

I seriously doubt it. And yes, I've been to the middle east, spent time there, and spoken with the people. If the Israelis are 'snatching' people off the street, then there is at least a minute chance that those people are threatening the security of their nation. At the very least, there is a minute chance that they are receiving medical attention and having their needs attended to.

But all that aside for a moment. I'd like to look at another aspect of this whole exchange, an aspect that I've mentioned before....

The Israelis improve their land, they invest in their people, they grow their society, they make advancements (anyone hear of Buffet's recent acquisition of an Israeli precision machine tools firm?). The Arabs, for all their rhetoric and whining have done little besides pump oil and sell it in order to build resorts and temples either the religion of their god or to the religion of their indulgence, all the while developing  an increasingly inhumane, intolerant social view of the Western World as a whole. The Israelis, given, with our help, have developed a technologically advanced society. They are a benefit to humanity as a whole, and, therefore, are worthy of our monetary and military support. If there is intolerance there, it is because it was bred into them, grown over the course of 3 generations spent under passive as well as active siege, and nourished by a constant sense of impending pain, suffering and annihilation. They are surrounded. I know it is a cliche, but it is a valid one. They are surrounded, they know it, and they continue to hang on. They are merely keeping their enemy at bay, while their enemy grows, developes and carries on an ongoing PR campaign that has somehow turned them into the victim and Israel into the oppressor. If Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and whoever else decides to toss their hat into this ring constitute a brotherhood of victims, then please explain to me, who is it exactly that outnumbers and surrounds them?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2006, 02:35:55 PM »
yeah... that's all well and good but... the noble freedom fighters are not asking that poor innocent people who were kidnapped by the jews (so that they could be fed and housed for 10 years in a jewish prison) be released...

What the are asking for is the release of PLO and hazbo whatevers to be released...

they have in the past (and will this time) ask for the release of the "hero" who killed a jewish policeman and a father, his 4 year old daughter and 2 year old son.   This is who the jews "kidnap".

Pray tell... why would the jews kidnap innocent women and children and hold them?   for what purpose?

lazs

Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2006, 02:36:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The UN isn't sending strongly worded emails to Hezbollah. They are denouncing Israel though.

All about rhetoric? Not hardly.

It is all about who is the aggressor, and the aggressor ain't Israel.

The gangs here should be taken care of by law enforcement. Our hog tied legal system prevents that.

But the gangs here are not going to Canada or Mexico and blowing up mass transit buses and pizza parlors.

It just ain't all the same, regardless of the excuses made by some.

Understand, I have nothing personal against you or your wife, I'm just not buying the idea that good or evil, right or wrong, is all a matter of perspective and rhetoric.


Really?, so the US born terrorist group knows as "Mara Salvatrucha ", aka MS13, are not blowing things up in Mexico? or El Salvador? or here in the US?

They have be-headed mexican cops, leaving thier heads in the center of town, kidnapped politicians, left dismembered bodies as post it notes, and recently not too far from the US border rolled into Ensanada 40 strong armed to the teeth taking captives and killing a cop.

Mara Salvatrucha is a us born terrorist group to the arab media, we call them a street gang. Who is more accurate?

My wife has an Arab centric local perspective we don't, and cant relate with. It's all the same.

I don't know what its like to grow up hearing every day on the news terrorist militias inside, and outside, the US operate with near impunity while US politicians create laws to oppress / incarcerate Americans, flap lips, take millions in donations, live the cushy pampered "Saddam lifestyle" while Americans go homeless, get laid off and starve.

Yet American politicians do almost nothing to fix anything beside bicker about which party has the better idea. Yet they have time to lecture Arab countries about how they should dis-arm militias and be more like us. Of course they laugh.

The idea we as western media informed Americans know better than the ones who live there, is looked at as a giant farce. Just like we think thier views about us are laughable... the Minutemen an "armed terrorist militia"?? pleeeese, a bunch of fat guys in SUVs armed with beer driving in circles at the border?? hardly a cause to roll out the Marines. Yet before my wife got here, they were an armed militia killing mexicans, and the US Govt did nothing about it... but lecture Lebanon about dis-arming thier border guarding militia.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2006, 02:43:49 PM »
soooo.... Mara Salvatrucha  is sending rockets into the civilian population of mexico from somewhere in the U.S.?

It is operating with and protected by the U.S. government and citizens?

They aint my buddies how bout you?  I would love to see em arrested if they broke any U.S. laws.   I doubt if they are even U.S. citizens for the most part are they?

So your example is totaly false.  

Try again.

lazs