Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by xrtoronto
why is it ironic that a jewish guy by the name of Krauthammer wrote this article? he writes articles for the Jewish World Review all the time.

btw: nice choice for an unbiased souce:lol

see for yourself

Kraut + hammer was the humor that I was implying.  

Kraut = slang for a German
Hammer = to hammer somthing or to hurt it.

Combine the two words and add the fact that the guys a jew and it seems ironic and funny to me.  


Did you read it at all or just ignore it completly because the guy is a jew?

from the "biased" source:

When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to a cinder, and turned the Japanese home islands to rubble and ruin. Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right — legal and moral — to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan.

sounds about right to me.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Sparks
So Elfie - the fact that Israel's people are under attack gives them the right  to do "whatever it takes" - your statement seems to imply this.
So if Mosad discovered a Hezbollah cell in NY and decided that the best way to deal with it was to blow the building up, and if  it killed 10 or 15 innocent New Yorkers with it that would be ok ??

What the IDF is doing is lowering themselves to the level of the terrorist and in doing so alienating a population that was perhaps the most cosmopolitan and democratic in the Middle East.

Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda and all those organisations who aspire to promote militant Islam are the biggest threat to all our freedom in the West but destroying southern Lebanon and killing innocent Lebanese is not weakening them, it is making them stronger.  Do you honestly believe that the Lebanese who watch all the foreign nationals run off to Cyprus; whose houses get bombed with out so much as a harsh word; are going to blame Hezbollah ? We need these people on our side - to inform, to rat out, to win the underground war against the terrorist.  We turn the loacl population against us and the war becomes un-winable - WTG IDF.

Do you think the IDF is intentionally and with full knowledge is attacking civilians with no for no other reason than that they are Lebanese civilians? I dont. In fact, the Israelis are asking civilians to leave whenever possible.

The IDF has made it nearly impossible for Syria to come to Hezbollah's aid by bombing key roads and bridges, smart move imo.

There will be no winning of this war until Israel has been anhiliated. After the PLO came Hezbollah and Hamas, after this round of rejects has been eliminated or falls apart due to internal squabbles, another group will form and take it's place.

All this hand wringing over dead Lebanese civilians, where was your hand wringing over dead Israeli civilians? Where is your sympathy for Israelis that have lost loved ones due to terrorist attacks? Where is your outrage when terrorist rockets fall on Israeli cities? Where is your outrage when terrorists blow up Israeli school busses? Where is your outrage when Hezbollah fires rockets that they intentionally set up just outside UN observation posts? Fact is, your outrage (at least on this BBS) is non-existent when it comes to the terrorists.

It's a 2 way street over there. Militants attack Israel, Israel attacks the militants, civilians die. Tragic? Of course it is. Hezbollah brought this round of fighting onto the Lebanese intentionally. Any one with half a brain would blame Hezbollah for provoking Israel over and over and over.

How many Israeli civilians have to die before they are allowed to use brutal force to keep their people safe in your opinion?

[Thrawn]

Edit:  Hey Gunslinger, didn't see your post.  I hope my response to Maverick answers your questions.

Originally posted by Maverick
No matter which way you go you can claim that hezbollah can add man--- scuze me, coward power to their ranks.

Sure, but I think that by invading southern Lebannon, Hezbollah is able recruit many more than through acting in different methods, because Lebanonese can see for themselves the effects the invasion is having on them.  Where as if Israel adopted other methods the Hezbollah message gets diluted.

Is there a real cut and dry way to make hezbollah pay all by themselves? Nope as they are funded in part, allowed to operate and at the very least tacitly supported by lebanon. Given that hezballah has a significant minority in the parliament lebanon can't help but be partially to blame for what they do, particularly inside their own borders.

I agree.  NATO et al decided after 9.11 that harbouring terrorists is casus belli to go kick the **** out of countries government and replace it.  If I was King of Israel I would argue for the same sort of action regarding Lebanon, but I would give them an out.  Accept a large multinational peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon (and no, not simply observers, but guys with guns and ROE to be able to use them).  They could perform joint patrols with the Lebanese military.  The Lebanese military would not have forewarning of the routes and/or timing of the patrols.  They are there for face saving purposes.

This would help secure the border.  Bring the fight to Hezbollah while minimizing killing civilians etc.  Bring the acts of Hezbolah to greater prominence on the world stage (I think I can imagine what would happen to sympathy for Hezbolah in say Norway if a few of their peacekeepers got killed by them).  And deflect criticism from Israel.

If Lebanon does not agree to this, then it's regime change time.  
Unfortunately Israel doesn't have alot of allies as they have a habit of pissing off alot of countries one way or another.  But I think it would be worth a shot.  The key is to act multilaterally.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Edit:  Hey Gunslinger, didn't see your post.  I hope my response to Maverick answers your questions.




Sure, but I think that by invading southern Lebannon, Hezbollah is able recruit many more than through acting in different methods, because Lebanonese can see for themselves the effects the invasion is having on them.  Where as if Israel adopted other methods the Hezbollah message gets diluted.


 

I agree.  NATO et al decided after 9.11 that harbouring terrorists is casus belli to go kick the **** out of countries government and replace it.  If I was King of Israel I would argue for the same sort of action regarding Lebanon, but I would give them an out.  Accept a large multinational peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon (and no, not simply observers, but guys with guns and ROE to be able to use them).  They could perform joint patrols with the Lebanese military.  The Lebanese military would not have forewarning of the routes and/or timing of the patrols.  They are there for face saving purposes.

This would help secure the border.  Bring the fight to Hezbollah while minimizing killing civilians etc.  Bring the acts of Hezbolah to greater prominence on the world stage (I think I can imagine what would happen to sympathy for Hezbolah in say Norway if a few of their peacekeepers got killed by them).  And deflect criticism from Israel.

If Lebanon does not agree to this, then it's regime change time.  
Unfortunately Israel doesn't have alot of allies as they have a habit of pissing off alot of countries one way or another.  But I think it would be worth a shot.  The key is to act multilaterally.

Thrawn I think you have the right Idea there but I don't think the UN itself will go for it.

[Elfie]

I agree. NATO et al decided after 9.11 that harbouring terrorists is casus belli to go kick the **** out of countries government and replace it. If I was King of Israel I would argue for the same sort of action regarding Lebanon, but I would give them an out. Accept a large multinational peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon (and no, not simply observers, but guys with guns and ROE to be able to use them). They could perform joint patrols with the Lebanese military. The Lebanese military would not have forewarning of the routes and/or timing of the patrols. They are there for face saving purposes.

This would help secure the border. Bring the fight to Hezbollah while minimizing killing civilians etc. Bring the acts of Hezbolah to greater prominence on the world stage (I think I can imagine what would happen to sympathy for Hezbolah in say Norway if a few of their peacekeepers got killed by them). And deflect criticism from Israel.

If Lebanon does not agree to this, then it's regime change time.
Unfortunately Israel doesn't have alot of allies as they have a habit of pissing off alot of countries one way or another. But I think it would be worth a shot. The key is to act multilaterally.

Nice post Thrawn. Would this solution work? I dunno, but I think it's worth a shot too. Imo the key to this solution is armed Peacekeepers that have the authority and WILL to use the weapons issued to them.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thrawn I think you have the right Idea there but I don't think the UN itself will go for it.

You are most likely right Gunslinger. The UN has never had a bite to go with its bark.

[xrtoronto]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Did you read it at all or just ignore it completly because the guy is a jew?
 

there are good and bad in all 'races' of people guns...I learned that a very long time ago.

I also have jewish friends here in TO...and I know one of them who visited Israel only last summer with his rabbi and about 40 others, who thinks as I do, that this particular response in Lebanon is not a good one.

I am personally angry because IDF killed a Major from the Canadian Armed Forces who was there for the last 9 months for the purpose of only observing things. A few days before that, the IDF killed 8 other Canadians.

I think it's a VERY cheap cop-out to call someone who is critical of Israel anti-semitic. It's like the black person who doesn't get the job they applied for and screams 'racist'. If you don't believe me...google "israeli blogs" and read for yourself...there are Israelis who feel just the way I do!

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by xrtoronto
there are good and bad in all 'races' of people guns...I learned that a very long time ago.

I also have jewish friends here in TO...and I know one of them who visited Israel only last summer with his rabbi and about 40 others, who thinks as I do, that this particular response in Lebanon is not a good one.

I am personally angry because IDF killed a Major from the Canadian Armed Forces who was there for the last 9 months for the purpose of only observing things. A few days before that, the IDF killed 8 other Canadians.

I think it's a VERY cheap cop-out to call someone who is critical of Israel anti-semitic. It's like the black person who doesn't get the job they applied for and screams 'racist'. If you don't believe me...google "israeli blogs" and read for yourself...there are Israelis who feel just the way I do!

I agree with you completly that the race card is played way to often.  You have my sympothy for the loss of your countrymen as they died serving somthing greater then themselves.  

OTOH, I see a pattern forming in Europe and in the UN that it seems they've never met an enemy of Israel that they didn't like.  Peoples that would be considered despicable in any other light are "freedom fighters" and the like.  I don't agree with it and espouse my opinion on it whenever afforded the oppertunity to do so.

[Sparks]

Donzo posted

So tell me, what should they do? Talk about it? What exactly was it that they did to warrant rockets being indiscriminately fired on their population?

That's the real question Donzo. Israel did nothing except exist and in the eyes of Hezbollah that is enough. Talking to Hezbollah is no use - the stated aim of Hezbollah and others is the destruction of Israel.  However the agressor is not a standard army and so confronting it with a standard military response is ineffective - hence the situation in Iraq.  The enemy is hidden within the normal populace, surviving by intimidation and thuggery and the support of an alienated minority.
But it is a Lebanese problem - Hezbollah are a pollitical party in Lebanon and have a minority following.  The Lebanese government should be forced to take a view for the country as a whole as to whether Hezbollah has a place in the country.  The west as a whole should stand behind Israel and give a timescale for Lebanon to decide it's attitude to Hezbollah and it should be made clear that it's a "with us or against us" choice to quote GWB - with Hezbollah support comes destruction.  But while that decision is being made we should be on the ground in Lebanon in the villages and towns treating the citizens with respect and building trust.  This is the policy the British army has learned over the years to be the most effective.  
You need the peoples help to beat an embedded terrorist organisation - you need information and contacts and the trust that you will use it to help bring peace.

A 500lb bomb dropped from a distant plane on a house with an apology afterwards is hardly a means to build trust.  The ceasefire should start now and we should be in now to help re-build homes and trust however I feel it may be too late.  
Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan where-ever - military blitzkrieg is never going to defeat a dispersed terrorist force - how many times must we see it fail to learn the lesson.

In regards the Washington post quote

What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities — every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians — and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy’s infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering

Nicely spun - the majority of the 1500 fall into open fields as they they are unguided where-as the Israeli precision guided weapons go astray and hit buildings with civilians in as an un-avoidable consequence ?? The UN post was clearly marked and we have all seen the video proudly displayed of laser guide waepons going in the front door of hangars e.g. the destrauction of the Al-zarqurwi house. If they are that bad with precision guided stuff maybe they need more training ??

[deSelys]

Once again, the poster showing the more in-depth knowledge of the topic is completely ignored.

Momus. I don't know how you still have the patience.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thrawn I think you have the right Idea there but I don't think the UN itself will go for it.

I wouldn't have to get the whole UN to go for it, just the big boys on the Security Council.  I would tell China and Russia that a stable middle east means cheaper oil for them.  France, England and the US would probably be on side.  Although oil companies probably would not, instability is a great excuse to raise the price.  The non-permant members could proably be brought on side if those five were.  Japan, Denmark, they are peace loving peoples.  Play up peace and happiness ect, which are all good things, with a propaganda campaign aimed at the citizens of the countries that sit on the SC.  Hell, merely by offering a mulitlateral peaceful solution I'm taking the wind out of Hezbollah's sails, and turning a recruiting drive into a look-what-a-bunch-of-*******s-Hezbollah-is drive.  Meanwhile Israel is smelling like a rose.


If anyone started to balk I would say, "Look, if this proposal isn't accept there is going to be a regime change in Lebanon one way or another.".  Then see who blinks first, do the members really want an escalation and all it entails?

Originally posted by Elfie
You are most likely right Gunslinger. The UN has never had a bite to go with its bark.

The UN's (or more appropriately Security Council's) bite is only as good as it's members desire to do something about a situation.

[Elfie]

The UN post was clearly marked and we have all seen the video proudly displayed of laser guide waepons going in the front door of hangars e.g. the destrauction of the Al-zarqurwi house.

While that is true, we never see the videos of these weapons when they fail to work as advertised. Even when they do work they dont always hit their targets exactly. Take the new US artillery round for example, Excalibur. It's a gps guided round. If it hits within 10 meters or so of it's intended target it is considered a success. Not all of these munitions are as *precision* as we have been lead to believe.

I dont think we will ever see an armed conflict were innocents dont die.

[Elfie]

The UN's (or more appropriately Security Council's) bite is only as good as it's members desire to do something about a situation.

Very true Thrawn. The SC can rarely agree on actions that should be taken.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by Sparks
But it is a Lebanese problem -

Originally posted by Sparks
In regards the Washington post quote  Nicely spun - the majority of the 1500 fall into open fields as they they are unguided where-as the Israeli precision guided weapons go astray and hit buildings with civilians in as an un-avoidable consequence ??  

So what you are in saying is that the fact that some of these rockets end up falling into an open field this should not be problem for Israel?  
They should pack up there stuff and go home and wait for the Lebanese gov to put Hezbollah in it's place?

[Rude]

Originally posted by Thrawn
I find it hard to believe that people don't understand that this is exactly what Hezbollah wants...lots of civilians dead, homes destroyed, civil infrastructure destroyed.  It's a recruiting drive.

This is why I think Israel is acting stupidly, because...they...are...doing. ..exactly...what...Hezbollah. ..wants.

and your solution the the aged conflict in the ME is what?