Hezbollah was using UN post as 'shield'

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Toad
Is there ANYONE that really believes the UN would dare such action?

Maybe not but as King of Israel I would advocate for it anyway.

[Nash]

(continuation of my stupid hyjack - try to ignore it)

Sorry Seagon. I had forgotten about this post where you did answer me on almost the exact same question. And your answer here in this thread was also very thoughtful.

I guess it still just doesn't compute with me. It probably never will. But that's not your problem - it's mine. Thanks for answering me at any rate.

/stupid out of bounds hyjack

[Sparks]

Mav, you're taking the same tack as Guns - that my views against what the IDF is doing is therefore justifying what Hezbollah are doing.  That's nonsense - read my posts; nowhere do I support Hezbollah or it's actions.

My point is simple - the aim of the Israeli action is the killing of Hezbollah forces; the reduction of Hezbollah to zero; however what they are actually acheiving is the strengthening of hezbollah support and deepening the hatred of Israel. It is counter productive and, worse than that, it is killing innocent civilians as well as building support for our enemies.  Action was needed but the type of action is wrong.

The cause is just, the goal is sound, the method is flawed - it's that simple.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Elfie
The UN has never had a bite to go with its bark.

Which is why the UN is useless and has been since 1947.

[Seagoon]

Hi Nash,

NP, Thanks for being a gentleman about it.

- SEAGOON

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Sparks
Mav, you're taking the same tack as Guns - that my views against what the IDF is doing is therefore justifying what Hezbollah are doing.  That's nonsense - read my posts; nowhere do I support Hezbollah or it's actions.

My point is simple - the aim of the Israeli action is the killing of Hezbollah forces; the reduction of Hezbollah to zero; however what they are actually acheiving is the strengthening of hezbollah support and deepening the hatred of Israel. It is counter productive and, worse than that, it is killing innocent civilians as well as building support for our enemies.  Action was needed but the type of action is wrong.

The cause is just, the goal is sound, the method is flawed - it's that simple.

 They are in fact killing hezbollah and reducing hezbollah to zero and if there is any gained support of hezbollah it is a bi-product of their action.  You cannot win this action through appeasment, it just wont work.  

One cannot be afraid to fight terrorism because it will increase the finatics resolve.

[Sparks]

They are in fact killing hezbollah and reducing hezbollah to zero

My God, you really believe that don't you ? Hezbollah were formed nearly 25 years ago and have survived through the civil war and the Israeli occupation and you think they can be destroyed in two weeks of incursions ! Read up on the region. These are not a uniformed force tied to a specific area who stand to defend a town or village - they're stateless terrorists constantly moving.

and if there is any gained support of hezbollah it is a bi-product of their action.

So killing one and creating two is victory ? Interesting idea ...

And now the much used appeasement accusation. I'm no appeaser but you can't seem to accept that this isn't a war for conventional warfare that can be won in weeks or months. This is a war of Intel, special forces and black ops. I was truly happy when we saw Zarqurwi killed in the manner he was - no accident but Intel, and precision.  We win when we start to terrorise the terrorist. When he thinks the next person to come through the door is a special forces op. When he fears the people round him, not trusts them. When the people round him believe he represents death and we represent peace. Every side report of a raid on a house or a small group of insurgents killed in a "raid" makes me happy as these are the glimpses of what we are allowed to see of REAL victories and progress against these animals.

So what use is conventional warfare ? Well if can catch a rocket launcher in the open then sure laser guide it and WTFG but otherwise it's not effective. About the only operation to be of any use right now is probably the fight going on at Bint Abeil but that is of only minor importance in the big picture.

You carry on Hooo-Yaaa-ing to the video of Artillery batteries and F16's. I'll keep my heartfelt thanks to those patrolling in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere trying to build peace and relationships and to especial thanks to those we never see who take the fight up close and personal to the terrorists and kill them in their beds. They are scum and need to die isolated and and in fear.

But I'm just an anti-semtic yoo-ro-pean appeaser ...

[Gunslinger]

Maybe I should have been more specific.  They are reducing hezbollah to zero in the region.  Syria and Iran cannot logistically support them anymore as the supply lines have been cut and the suply convoys bombed.  

But alas I give up.  Why fight at all, we might run the risk of creating more enemys.  Heck we might even stub our toes in the process.

[Maverick]

So sparks, in other words you have no answers to the questions I asked you in cluding to support your claim of the accuracy of the hezbollah missiles.

You still seem to feel it is the only fault of Isreal that civilians are killed because they fired back rather than because hezbollah is using them as human shields.

Seems kinda one sided to me there.

[Sparks]

You're right - I give up too.  You don't seem to actually read[/i] digest and undertand anything.  You are blind to the idea that there are multiple ways of fighting and we need to fight harder now than we have before - but differently.

The REALY scary thing is you are teaching the future soldiers who may one day find themselves in these theatres.

I'm done.

[xrtoronto]

Hey I know...next time there is a bank robber who takes a hostage...Let's kill the hostage to get a better shot!

[Sparks]

Ok Mav, one post more for you.

Here's an example from Bloomberg,

Israeli aircraft resumed the bombardment of Beirut today as Hezbollah rockets hit Haifa and Safed, Israel's army said. At least 126 rockets hit Israel today, with 14 hitting Haifa, the army said. One person was seriously wounded outside the city, Israeli's third largest, it said.

126 fired - 14 on city, One person serious injured.  It's here . My others are from TV on BBC, CNN, and others - the story is roughly the same.

Answer to next question - obviously the intent is to kill as many as possible.

Answer to last question - obviously they have not leafleted Israel - they want to kill all Israelis' who breathe.

Please Mav show me anywhere anyhow I have said that Hezobollah - not the Lebanese civilian population - but Hezbollah - have my support or I accept what they do. Does nobody actually read what is written ?

I say again - Israel's cause is just and the goal shared by all - the execution is wrong.  We should be turning Southern Lebanon into the NATO special forces training area.   I would vote today for tax increases to raise our special forces numbers to whatever we needed to fight and win this war in all the theatres but conventional warfare is NOT the answer.

[Maverick]

Ok sparks, where did the others fall? Was it out away from everything or was it just outside of the city limits? You still didn't explain why the bad evil isrealis returning fire are so much worse than the hezbollah who fired into a city where fire was not coming from and no military objective.

I saw you later put a proviso on your posts bout the hezbolah don't have your support and all yet you don't seem to blame them for using their own folks as human shields. You're more upset about the isrealis counter battery fire hitting the human shields the hezbollah set up.

That's why I asked the questions I did.

I seriously doubt that NATO is going to do a damn thing about putting any training base in the area. Heck even the mighty UN can't put armed troops there with permition to defend themselves or keep their perimeter intact. Since NATO is primarily the same folks who don't want their troops there with the UN they damn sure won't do it for NATO. Besides what possible threat does Lebanon have to europe? They going to invade them or something?

[Sparks]

Mav the evidence I have seen is not in a format I can post here - for example a report from Jon Simpson and the BBC from an Israeli helicopter showing multiple smoke plumes in feilds and vineyards - to me they seem randomly scattered.

But my point here is that we should not be saying the action the IDF is disproportionate to the actions and intent of Hezbollah but rather the action of the IDF is disproportionate to their intended stated outcome. The deeds do not match the words.
And that is my point,  we should not be justifying our actions by comparison with the actions of stone age religious nutjobs. You ask about blaming Hezbollah about using sheilds - yes I blame them but if we go ahead an kill the human sheilds and then blame Hezbollah for the deaths when we knowingly pulled the trigger then I say we are lowering ourselves to thier level.
If you want to judge on comparison of intent then sure Hezbollah want to destroy Israel and every Israeli and so any response could be justified - all out nuclear onslaught ?
But Israel is a civilised nation not terrorists and the stated aim quoted by the IDf and Israeli government is the destruction of Hezbollah - however the actions they are carrying out do not match the words in nature or effect. In hindsight drawing the comaprison I did was an error on my part.

If there is any point to make about the rocket strike accuracy (intent apart) it is that the nation of Israel is far from under threat of imminent destruction and so there is time to do the job right if we wanted to.

[Maverick]

So how should hezbollah be killed when they hide among civilians. I am interested to see how you think it's going to happen.

BTW I thought you were done here.