Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Elfie
When Hezbollah sets up next to say....an apartment building, or just outside the fence of a UN observation post......dont you think the collateral damage is going to be significant even with precision guided munitions?

 

Israel isnt killing indiscriminately. When rockets get launched into Israel, IDF units either fire counterbattery fire or send in airstrikes. Either of those options HAS to be done quickly to catch the Hezbollah people that are firing on Israel. There isnt time to go in and make sure no civilians are in the area. Hence why Israel has been dropping leaflets telling the Lebanese civilians they need to leave. Otoh, in some cases Hezbollah has been preventing civilians from leaving and in at least one instance has murdered a man who tryed to do so.

Then you put boots on the ground to avoid that collateral damage.

When you fire rockets into a building looking to kill 3 or 4 people and end up killing dozens. knowing they are there. Thats being pretty indiscrimate if you ask me.

Hezbollah may be stopping some people from leaving but they arent holding the entire populations there
And if you drop leaflets telling people to get out. Then you gotta  let them leave safely. You cant have it both ways.
Perhaps setting up roadblocks and checkpoints clearing everyoe looking to get out is the answer.

But you cant tell them to get out. then  not allow them to safely leave

If Isreal is serious about stopping the attacks on Isreal. they are going to HAVE to put boots on the ground and root them out building by building room by room and 1 by 1.

This long range warfare isnt going to do it.

Al they are doing is answering butchery with even more butchery. and making even more enemies for themselves in the process

[Donzo]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
your missing my entire point.

I didn't miss your point.  Hez is firing rockets on Israel.  What should Israel do?

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by xrtoronto
number dead in this attack is now 57...34 of them children

Funny, isn't it XRT, that it is now being reported that the building collapsed [SIZE=8]8 ****ING HOURS[/SIZE] after it was hit.

Figure that one out.

[Suave]

A ceasefire means an end to hostilities. That includes returning kidnapped soldiers, I think that's what everybody wants.

[Elfie]

To say the risk of one Israeli life lost justifies the loss of hundreds of Lebanese lives is ranking our lives higher than theirs and to me a civilian is a civilian in both countries. We should not discriminate or lessen the loss of either and we should look to limit the loss of both.

I can agree with that.

Yes the loss of Israeli lives HAS to stop. But the price should not be the loss of hundreds of Arab lives and we should not try to justify our actions and lessen the value of innocent Lebanese civilians by saying it's Hezbollah fault. It doesn't matter whose fault it is that they are in the line of fire; when you pull the trigger that will kill them you should view them same as if they were your own countrymen and if you wouldn't kill your own then you shouldn't pull the trigger. A civilian is just that - they are the same as you and I.

Who started this latest round of violence? Would Israel be attacking if Hezbollah hadnt repeatedly attacked them? I think we can agree that those answers are: Hezbollah and No. Doesnt that make Hezbollah at fault?

I consider Hitler to be at fault for every single Russian, English, French, Polish, American,(and every other nationality that fought in Europe) and even every single German life lost. Why? Because Hitler started that whole mess. Hezbollah started this mess, therefore I blame them for every life lost in this conflict, Lebanese, Israeli or UN oberserver.

Imo, saying Hezbollah is at fault for causing the civilian casualties doesnt lessen the value of Lebanese life. It just places the blame where its due.

Sparks, you just cant tell the military to beat the crap out of someone, then give them impossible ROE. The USA tryed that in Vietnam, I think we all know how that worked out.

As to your suggestion about using a multinational force in Lebanon, I dont think it would work if Western countries sent units. Western units would be viewed as Crusaders imo. Otoh, an all Arab force might be able to do the job.....IF they actually enforced peace with lethal force. I'm not sure how that would work out, Muslims killing Muslims to keep them from attacking Israel.....  The only solution for Hezbollah, Hamas and others is the complete destruction of Israel. It's kinda hard to find a counter solution to that. /sigh

I know....it sucks that innocents are paying the ultimate price. I think thats the biggest reason wars suck so bad, the innocent generally get the shortest end of the stick.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Donzo
I didn't miss your point.  Hez is firing rockets on Israel.  What should Israel do?

Read my above post.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by Suave
A ceasefire means an end to hostilities.  

This means no more firing rockets.  We shall see if that happens.  My bet is that it will not.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny, isn't it XRT, that it is now being reported that the building collapsed [SIZE=8]8 ****ING HOURS[/SIZE] after it was hit.

Figure that one out.

Whats to figure out?
A weakend structure doesnt have to collapse right away

[Donzo]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Read my above post.

I did.  And while I agree with there needing to be more troops on the ground to elminiate Hez 1on1, I do not think that this would go over well either.

Headlines:
"Israel hostile occupation of Lebanon frowned upon by world."

There is no easy solution to this.  What I find amazing is that Hez surrending is never offered as a solution.  Why is that?  Why is Israel made out to be the bad guy?

[Suave]

Keeping hostages is itself an act of hostility.

[xrtoronto]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funny, isn't it XRT, that it is now being reported that the building collapsed [SIZE=8]8 ****ING HOURS[/SIZE] after it was hit.

Figure that one out.

would you like to express that to the loved ones of the dead? I have no doubt it will make all the difference. (particularily to the 4 month old infant)

[Elfie]

Then you put boots on the ground to avoid that collateral damage.

I dont think Israel wants to do that again unless they absolutely have to. They tryed that before and ended up occupying southern Lebanon for 18 or so years. You know, back when they beat the snot out of the PLO for the very same reasons they are kickin the daylights out of Hezbollah now.

I also think Israel is trying to show some restraint by NOT putting boots on the ground. That would be an escalation on their part that might draw other Muslim countries into the war.

Hezbollah may be stopping some people from leaving but they arent holding the entire populations there

I dont think there is enough Hezbollah to stop everyone from leaving heh.

And if you drop leaflets telling people to get out. Then you gotta let them leave safely. You cant have it both ways.

I believe Israel has let those people leave. We have the instance of the people from Marwaheen that got killed after they had left the village, gone to a UN base for shelter and were turned down, then sometime after that.....they were killed. What we dont know, is why were their vehicles hit? Was it a mistake? I dont doubt that mistakes have happened. Wrong targets get hit in every war. There are to many things from the Israeli side that we just dont know yet. So much of the information is one sided atm.

Now if I believed that Israel was intentionally and deliberately targetting civilians, I would agree with you. I just dont believe that the IDF is saying things like....Ahhh, here's a Hezbollah launcher next to a building with 57 Lebanese civilians, kill them all!! Just dont see the IDF acting like that, or even remotely close.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Whats to figure out?
A weakend structure doesnt have to collapse right away

Do people need to be inside of a weakend structure?  I wouldn't put it past Hez to have forced the people to stay inside the structure...gambling that it would collapse.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Exactly what I think Hezbollah was counting on to begin with.

Now also take int account we have a religeous nut in the whitehouse who is just kooky enough to decide its him to fulfill prophecies. And that nightmare gets even larger.

Seagoon,(if your around) Doesnt it say something about a false prophet comming around first?

Some former CIA dude was on the news with some interesting observations:
The building in question collapsed 7+ hours after it was hit.
Some of the bodies on the news had lividity stains, and no rigor... along with others that had full on rigor... suggesting they died hours apart, not in 1 strike.

Women & children were hit, no young men?

Basically Hezbollah had 7+ hours to stage the scene; collect bodies from where ever & place them inside before knocking the building over themselves.

He also suggested they simply had already full ambulances from near by rally there to make it look much worse.

It wouldn't surprise him, or me, if half the dead had bullet holes in their heads after being forced to stay.

He thinks Israel has seriously hurt Hezbollah, and Hezbollah is looking for a break from F16 strikes and will continue to pile women & children's bodies near places the Israelis strike.

Dead kids and girls always cause a knee-jerk reaction, which is what Hezbollah is counting on.

[Toad]

For those advocating a multinational force with clearance to fully engage, get it out of your head.

Probably the last time that happened under the UN aegis was in Korea.

It is simply NOT going to happen in Lebanon. Any country that sent troops to Lebanon with full clearance to engage is going to end up fighting Hezbollah in non-stop engagements. That leads to the rest of the Arabs hating the countries involved. Think "Jihad".

All the countries with enough military capability for such a mission have significantly large muslim populations. As a result there will be no sand, grit or will to get such a job done.

Ain't            Gonna          Happen.    EVER.

So, forget it. Try to think up something else.