Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire

[Elfie]

Originally posted by parker00
Any proof of what you say? I don't see how you could though as religion is based completely on faith.

Genesis chapter 12.

[parker00]

Originally posted by Elfie
Genesis chapter 12.

Like I said, that is all based on faith. I don't know if any of that is true or not but I do know for a fact that all sides are to blame for the current situation in the middle east.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by parker00
 Sad to say but most feel that way on this board.

I know.

Thing is both sides are guilty of the same thing

the killing of (insert any number here) innocents by one side doesnt justify the killing of (insert an larger number here) innocents on the other side.

Each side plays tit-for-tat

I am neither for nor against either side. As I have longtime maintained.
But I beleive
What were are seeing is a deadly tempertantrum being thrown by both sides.

I know  only 2 possible solutions.
But. Nobody will like either of them.

First is to treat both sides like the brats they are acting like
(he hit me first,- no HE did)
What does it matter who did what to who first anymore?
Point is its got to stop

Some years ago my son and his cousin got into a fight. My wife, my sister in law kept yelling at them and talking to them and asking them to stop to no avail.
Much like countries around the world keep trying to get this nonsense to stop
 Finally I got tired of watching them playing these games with the kids and I solved the situation quickly and effectivly.
 I grabbed them both and clunked their heads together. Telling them "I dont care who started it. Now your both going to stop it."

Same solution here. Be-otch slap both sides and tell em to knock it off

But nobody is going to like that.

Other solution is to Forget having Isreal in its current form but rather have the area in a shared and equal power. No soley "Jewish or Muslam State" But shared equally. One Government Ruled by two seperate but equal powers.
Then each can claim they "rule the holy land" (old eyeroll thingie)

Its going to have to come to that eventually anyway.

There is one other solution. More in line with the first one.
If the two children cant play together nice in the sandbox.
Then perhaps  neither should be allowed to play there at all.

POOF!
Problem solved

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Elfie
This might be why Israel attacked:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14100258/?GT1=8307





Again, Israel warns civilians of an impending attack. Civilians dont leave. Civilians die. Did Hezbollah prevent the civilians from leaving again as they have done in other places? We dont know that yet, but if they did......arent they to blame for putting the civilians in danger?

Hezbollah attacks from just outside UN posts, they attack from civilian population centers. I blame Hezbollah for the deaths of UN soldiers and civilians.

 

Imo, the atrocity happened when Hezbollah fired it's rockets from inside a village full of civilians knowing full well that they were putting those civilians at a HUGE risk.

Thing is the Isreali forces are also bombing the roads and are refusing to guarantee safe passage for people trying to flee.
So what are the people to do?
do they stay and run the risk of being bombed? or leave and run the risk of being bombed?

Seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

If you are goignt o drop leaflets warning people to get out.
then you should at least have the honor to let them leave safely.

Otherwise you might just as well not drop the leaflets and bomb them anyway.

The leaflet thing it just to keep world opinion happy and so they can claim they warned them
Propoganda and nothing more

[BTW]

Originally posted by john9001
in related news , 78 people have been murdered in New Orleans so far this year.

That's drug scum killing drug scum. Its comparable to the murders in organized crime families. You're not going to end it with police or military. The only way to end it its to kill (or put away) those exact people who are being killed, because, yup, they're also the ones doing the killing.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Thing is the Isreali forces are also bombing the roads and are refusing to guarantee safe passage for people trying to flee.
So what are the people to do?
do they stay and run the risk of being bombed? or leave and run the risk of being bombed?

Seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

If you are goignt o drop leaflets warning people to get out.
then you should at least have the honor to let them leave safely.

Otherwise you might just as well not drop the leaflets and bomb them anyway.

The leaflet thing it just to keep world opinion happy and so they can claim they warned them
Propoganda and nothing more

And the leaflets Hezbollah  dropped said what?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Donzo
And the leaflets Hezbollah  dropped said what?

"Bang"

As I said before. The killing of "X" numbert of innocents one one side does not justify the killing of "XX" number of innocents on the other.

Dropping leaflets to get out. then bombing the roads does not place anyone on any higher moral ground then if they had dropped non at all

[Toad]

Originally posted by parker00
Israel may of been withdrawing from two areas but they were reinforcing others.

Simple question for you:

Do you think the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza was a step forward for peace in the region or a step back towards war? (Skip the part about it being "not enough"; I already know you think that.)

[Sparks]

What kind of perverted logic says "we know there were civilians there but pulled the trigger anyway coz we want to kill the Hezbollah - it's Hezbollahs fault coz they were hiding in civilians"

So when Chechens took the school actually what should have happened is the Russians should have just flattened the school to kill the terrorists and that would have been ok because it was the terrorists fault the children were there.

I would like to see what would happen if Hezbollah got a rocket launcher across the border, took a village hostage and fired it - would the IDF bomb their own in order to kill Hezbollah terrorists - I think not.

And other say "they were given warning to move and didn't - it's their own fault". What about those who can't travel ? And as Drediock said

Interesting Tactic

Drop leaflets warning of the impended bombing saying to get out.
(keeps world opinion happy)
and bombing the roads so they cant

They could always tape the leaflet to the bomb and save a flight ...

Just because we are fighting animals does not mean we have to behave the same way.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Sparks
I would like to see what would happen if Hezbollah got a rocket launcher across the border, took a village hostage and fired it - would the IDF bomb their own in order to kill Hezbollah terrorists - I think not.

 

I'd think you'd find the citizens of the Israeli village fighting tooth and nail against Hez until IDF showed up to finish the job.

Just a guess.

Here's another guess. I'd guess that if Lebanon's armed forces were in the area actively pursuing and attacking Hez forces that were shooting rockets into Israel then the IDF would probably not be bombing Lebanon.

It's a true mess but the blame goes to Hez; they started this thing and endangered the citizens of Lebanon. The Israelis are miscalculating though; they're losing more support every time they have incidents like the latest one.

I suspect this will draw to a close sooner rather than later.

[Sparks]

The question about the activity of the Lebanese army is a valid one Toad but to be honest no-one has shown me any evidence that there actually is a viable Lebanese army.  The country is new and untill very recently the armed security force was the Syrians.  My guess (and it is a guess no more) is that the Lebanese army does not have the capacity to fight Hezbollah.

I have another question about the targeting of buildings. The aim is supposedly the rocket launchers ? look  here They aren't exactly small.  We are not talking about shoulder mounted stuff fired out of building windows and doorways.  These things are big and take time to set up. The IDF really can't tell the difference between a convoy of cars and one of these ?? They think a truck is parked in a block of flats ?? They can't see an 18 tonne flatbed with rockets on rumbling down the road ??

[Elfie]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Thing is the Isreali forces are also bombing the roads and are refusing to guarantee safe passage for people trying to flee.
So what are the people to do?
do they stay and run the risk of being bombed? or leave and run the risk of being bombed?

Seems to me they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

If you are goignt o drop leaflets warning people to get out.
then you should at least have the honor to let them leave safely.

Otherwise you might just as well not drop the leaflets and bomb them anyway.

The leaflet thing it just to keep world opinion happy and so they can claim they warned them
Propoganda and nothing more

Why are the Israelis bombing the roads and other infrastructure? To make things harder on Hezbollah. (Side effect is, civilians are affected by this as well.) Roads arent the only way to travel. You can walk beside it, or take off cross country as well. Barring interference from Hezbollah, if those civilians wanted out, they would find a way to get out.

If Israel guaranteed safe passage down the roads, Hezbollah would set up their rocket launchers on the roads.

[Elfie]

I have another question about the targeting of buildings. The aim is supposedly the rocket launchers ? look here They aren't exactly small. We are not talking about shoulder mounted stuff fired out of building windows and doorways. These things are big and take time to set up. The IDF really can't tell the difference between a convoy of cars and one of these ?? They think a truck is parked in a block of flats ?? They can't see an 18 tonne flatbed with rockets on rumbling down the road ??

Sparks with the information we have so far. I think those rocket launchers are being parked next to civilian buildings. When ordinance lands in the area (targeted on the launchers) not only are the launchers taking damage but collateral damage is happening as well. ie....damage to homes, buisinesses, civilians etc.

Sparks I just dont know what else we can expect from the Israelis. Are they suppossed to just sit there and absorb rocket attacks forever? How long were they absorbing attacks before they responded?

Hezbollah sees this as a win win situation for them. If Israel does nothing, they can point to how weak the Israelis are. If Israel responds, they attack from areas they know innocents will die when the reprisals come.

Imo, Israel HAS to do something. The UN, Lebanon and the International community has been ineffective in stopping the attacks on Israel.

On the subject of the Lebanese army not being capable of patrolling thier side of the border and keeping it clear of Hezbollah, maybe the international community could train and arm the Lebanese army until the Lebanese can take care of this itself.

[Elfie]

What kind of perverted logic says "we know there were civilians there but pulled the trigger anyway coz we want to kill the Hezbollah - it's Hezbollahs fault coz they were hiding in civilians"

Sparks I think it comes down to this. Israel has been the target of repeated rocket attacks by Hezbollah. I think we can agree that this HAS to stop. The Lebanese are either incapable or unwilling (maybe both) to put a stop to it themselves.

So what is Israel to do? Israel is doing what she has to do to stop Hezbollah. Unfortunately that means that innocents are dying as well. I am not happy about innocents dying on either side.

I do try to look at the whole picture and look to see why Israel hits the targets that she does. The same applies to Hezbollah. Hezbollah hits any target that has Jews. The Israelis hit targets that Hezbollah is firing from. Hezbollah's primary intent is to kill Jews, regardless of whether or not they are civilian or military. Israel's primary objective is to kill Hezbollah and civilians and UN observers are an unfortunate and tragic side effect of Hezbollah using civilians and UN observation posts as human shields.

I think that using civilians and UN observers as *human shields* is a completely cowardly and evil tactic.


*edit* whoops, forgot this part.

Sparks, I have thought long and hard about this. If I was the one making the descions for Israel. I too would attack Hezbollah regardless of where they set up their launchers. I would do what it takes to protect my countrymen from future attacks.

Sparks, if you warned me my home was about to be bombed and I stayed their anyways and died in the attack. Dying would be my own fault because I had been warned ahead of time and chose to ignore it. Granted in southern Lebanon some folks are being prevented from leaving by Hezbollah. I have seen at least one report of Hezbollah murdering a man that tryed to leave a village after the Israeli's dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave. In  those cases, I blame Hezbollah for the civilian deaths, not the IDF.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
"Bang"

As I said before. The killing of "X" numbert of innocents one one side does not justify the killing of "XX" number of innocents on the other.

Dropping leaflets to get out. then bombing the roads does not place anyone on any higher moral ground then if they had dropped non at all

So, what would YOU have Isreal do?

Pretty much accurate bombing, leaflet dropping country  1
Ramdom rocket firing, no leaflet dropping, civilian shield using country           0