Author Topic: DD sherman  (Read 2386 times)

Offline taylortanklover

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DD sherman
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2006, 02:18:21 PM »
i have one last thing to say about the sherman being BETTER than the t-34 is that it could be an amphibious tank or just a ground tank! the t-34 was a city area tank the sherman was a cross-country tank! the sherman could be equiped with a flamethrower, rocket launcher, mine destroyer thing, hedge row cut into thing, or dozer to push stuff out off the allies' way! the t-34's only known equiption was a flamethrower!

Offline Bogie603rd

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DD sherman
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2006, 02:50:59 PM »
What good would that do against computerized gun batteries and a bunch of steel? Plus, the trees or shrubs here dont catch flame. There is literally no difference that would present an advantage of the sherman vs. t34. If you want a big gun on an amphibious tank, use the LVTA. It has a 75 MM gun.
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Offline taylortanklover

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DD sherman
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2006, 05:28:27 PM »
maybe we want a FASTER amphibiuos tank! :cool: :furious ever think of that???:rolleyes: :furious :rofl :aok :t :aok

Offline frank3

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DD sherman
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2006, 06:06:53 PM »
I just read the Sherman DD did around 5 mph in the water though.
The LVT's do 10 (or 15?)

However, if the Sherman is about the same as the T-34 I'd drive it!
I just love the T-34's speed, and has a reasonable armament.

And to 'not add it because it's no good' is no argument, we have the B5N, is that any better than other aircraft?
No, but it's historically correct to add it.

Offline E25280

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to bogie and tanklover:
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2006, 07:51:14 PM »
I won't bother with all the quoting for sake of time (gonna be a book anyway), but to answer some of the items the two of you said:

First, don't go by the History Channel for much other than "that sounds interesting, I wonder if its true."  Their top 10 tanks were a joke.  They actually stated that the T-34's "high velocity" 76mm gun was able to penetrate the frontal armor of the German Tiger at range.  That alone tells you how much they fact-checked that particular program.

Second, the T-34 does NOT have "way more armor" than the Sherman.  What it does have is better slope and a lower silloette, which made it harder to spot, and harder to hit squarely, which meant more propensity for a round to richochet off instead of penetrate -- at least for the lower calibre German guns of 41-43.  By '44 the 75mm and 88mm guns cut through the T-34s as readily as they did the Shermans.

The 76mm Soviet gun and the snub 75mm were about equal IIRC.  The Sherman benefited from a much roomier turret which meant a much higher rate of fire, and had much better visibility for the crew.

The T-34s were inadequate by 1944, hence the upgrade to the T-34/85.  The 85mm gun was a very good gun, and made the T-34 leathal again.

IMO neither tank deserves its reputation.  The T-34 built up it's reputation as an "uber-tank" because when introduced in late 41, the Germans had nothing to compete.  The PzkwIII of the day had a 37mm gun (some upgraded to 50mm) that were inadequate to take out the T-34.  Most Pzkw IVs still mounted low-velocity howitzers for direct infantry support.  Thus, in tank vs tank battles, the T-34 did dominate for a time until the Tigers, upgunned PzkwIVs and Panthers were on the field in enough numbers to counter.  By that time, the T-34 was already the darling of the Soviet tanker, and couldn't be blamed for losing against the German heavies.

Well, you know what, the Sherman was introduced in 1942, and at that time was better than the Pzkw IIIs and IVs as well.  But tank vs tank battles of any scale did not occur until 1944 in Normandy.  At that time they faced upgraded PzkwIVs, Panthers and Tigers.  And these tanks made short work of the Shermans, just like they did on the East Front against the T-34.  But, since the majority of the American servicemen did not see action until Normandy and after, their impression of the Sherman was that it was inadequate, a death trap, etc. and couldn't stand up to German armor.  Hence the reputation.

One final thing that did hurt the Sherman was US armored doctrine.  The Shermans were supposed to be direct infantry support vehicles, and were not supposed to fight tank-to-tank combat (but try to tell that to the guys in the field!).  In this way they were similar to the early German PzkwIVs.  The US instead designated tank-destroyers for the roll of tank-vs-tank combat.  In practice it did not work well, but that was the doctrine.  The snub 75mm gun was not designed to be an effective tank-killer, but was adequate to take out the lighter-armored PzkwIIIs and IVs the designers new the Germans had.  They did not contemplate the Tiger or Panther.  (Even the high-velocity 76mm guns on the tank-destroyers were inadequate for these when hitting the front, which goes to show the US did not foresee very heavy tanks).

So, the Sherman is only a "bad tank" insomuch as the M-60 is a "bad tank" because it can't stand up to the M1 Abrahms.  Armored innovation simply out-paced it.  But, it did what it was designed to do, did it effectively, was easily produced, was mechanically reliable, and was easily modified to fit a variety of rolls (dozer, crab, calliope, DD, etc. all based on the M-4).  "Reputation" is a tricky thing to base assessments on, because they are often proved wrong when looked at objectively.
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Offline Bogie603rd

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DD sherman
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2006, 09:06:50 AM »
Thanks for the In-Detail description of the differences. Yet I am still led to believe it was a bit harder to kill the T-34 then it was to kill a sherman. You just said it yourself, the T-34 was designed to ricochet the oncoming AP and HE shells. The sherman apparently did not have this design (Which shows in the pictures above). That's why I don't want it, it's another tank to the list with no real features that would make a good "Tank vs. Tank" vehicle. The majority of AH these days uses tigers anyways to wipe out enemy fields. Why do we need another tank that would do nothing on the field wars?

We already have the M8 (Which is faster than the T-34 or M-4) and the LVTA. Which by the way, fires a 77MM HE (Or 70 MM.)

And frank, I know that the b5n isnt a good plane, yet I believe it was part of the original plane count.
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Offline Bronk

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DD sherman
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2006, 10:56:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bogie603rd
Thanks for the In-Detail description of the differences. Yet I am still led to believe it was a bit harder to kill the T-34 then it was to kill a sherman. You just said it yourself, the T-34 was designed to ricochet the oncoming AP and HE shells. The sherman apparently did not have this design (Which shows in the pictures above). That's why I don't want it, it's another tank to the list with no real features that would make a good "Tank vs. Tank" vehicle.

Ever hear of the SEA arena.  Would be great for in there.


 The majority of AH these days uses tigers anyways to wipe out enemy fields.
Not to be snotty but  how would you know what the tiger was doing in the MA.  Most are used by campers and defenders.



Why do we need another tank that would do nothing on the field wars?


See my above SEA comment.





We already have the M8 (Which is faster than the T-34 or M-4) and the LVTA. Which by the way, fires a 77MM HE (Or 70 MM.)

Way off here boyo, 37 mm for the M-8.




And frank, I know that the b5n isn't a good plane, yet I believe it was part of the original plane count.

What has "part of the original plane count" got to do with it. It was put there for a reason. I bet HT knew it would be of little use in the MA. On the other hand though SEA it gets used in almost every pac set up.





Personal comment incoming .

1st Sherman needs to be introduces just on historical points.
2nd Sherman should have diff models IE Firefly and EASY8


Bogie your a decent guy. But your starting to get a Mr. superior attitude, very unbecoming.

Bronk

Edit : The lvt has a low velocity 75mm cannon. Only use is building take downs and light armor gv.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 11:05:18 AM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline Bogie603rd

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DD sherman
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2006, 11:29:22 AM »
Quote
Way off here boyo, 37 mm for the M-8.

I was talking about the LVTA, it has the 70 MM, not the M8.
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Offline taylortanklover

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DD sherman
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2006, 12:02:09 PM »
the t-34 hade sloped armor, witch was made to reflect any on coming shells, but the sherman had kindof the same design. I am in my tanks of world war 2 book, and the book says the t-34/76 hade .78 in. thick armor in the hull, and 2.04 in. in the hull so the front armor made slanted i guess really worked! The t-34/85's armor was like a tiger I's armor, 3.93 (hull) & 3.54 (turret), the second t-34 was made to be the counter tank of the tiger I, tiger II, panther I and, panther 2s. remember with the first t-34 the armor was 2.04 in. and the sherman's was 1.5-2 in.!:D :p :) ;) :rofl :lol

Offline Bronk

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DD sherman
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2006, 12:18:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bogie603rd
I was talking about the LVTA, it has the 70 MM, not the M8.


Thats why i edited my post.
Quote
Edit : The lvt has a low velocity 75mm cannon. Only use is building take downs and light armor gv.



Also from HTC web page AC/vehicle info...
lvt4a
Country of origin: USA
Crew: Single-seat
Type: Vehicle
Armament: 30 cal M2
50 cal M2
100x75 mm HE <------------

No comments on the rest of my post ?

Bronk
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Offline taylortanklover

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DD sherman
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2006, 12:22:12 PM »
on ground is the main point with the speed factor the lvt is real slow on ground but the sherman is fast!

Offline E25280

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DD sherman
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2006, 03:42:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bogie603rd
Thanks for the In-Detail description of the differences. Yet I am still led to believe it was a bit harder to kill the T-34 then it was to kill a sherman. You just said it yourself, the T-34 was designed to ricochet the oncoming AP and HE shells. The sherman apparently did not have this design (Which shows in the pictures above). That's why I don't want it, it's another tank to the list with no real features that would make a good "Tank vs. Tank" vehicle.
The T-34 is also harder to kill than the PzkwIV.  The standard Sherman in AH game terms would have about the same armor as the PzkwIV (maybe a smidge better from the front), the same power gun as the T-34, but with faster rate of fire and better visibility.  Add on top of that a .50 cal pintle gun (vs. none for T-34 and the pea-shooter for the Panzer), and it is IMO sufficiently different vs the current tanks to warrant modeling.

Variants of the Sherman might not vary much in the armor category (exception of the Jumbo if it were modeled), but in armament there would be large differences.  A Firefly variant, for example, would replace the AH "T-34 - powered gun" with a "Tiger - powered gun".  An Easy-8 would have a gun approximately equal to the PzkwIV.  A 105mm Assault-gun version would be nice for taking down buildings, and if it had a limited amount of HEAT ammunition, could be quite deadly vs. tanks as well.  The Easy-8 may be a bit too close to the PzkwIV(H) for modeling in AH, but any of the others offer variety.

Quote
Originally posted by Bogie603rd
The majority of AH these days uses tigers anyways to wipe out enemy fields. Why do we need another tank that would do nothing on the field wars?
I'll just back up Bronk on this one.  In the MA you see at least 4 times the number of PzkwIVs as you do Tigers, and you see as many Ostwinds as Panzers.  T-34s and M-8s are more rare, but I still see them every time I play.  Plenty of room in the ground game for more armor.
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Offline Geeb 2

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DD sherman
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2006, 09:01:09 PM »
Quote
Whats with all the tards punting old topics lately?


what? do you like all the b29 & crap repeats? or are you just too lazy to hit last post bttn?