Author Topic: La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s  (Read 2647 times)

Offline Kweassa

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2006, 03:43:25 PM »
How much 'work' does it need to turn with an enemy plane, compared to the amount of work needed to do so in a 109 or a 190?

 Or, how much 'work' does it need to aim and shoot down an enemy plane with a AH-brand Hizooka, as compared to perhaps a contemporay plane armed with say, an AH MG151 or a MK108?

 
 Hey, this all means the plane was that good. No doubt about it. However, I'd make some reservations in saying you need to 'work hard' to get kills in a Spit16 - because clearly, you don't. Oh I suppose you'd need some 'work', since the MA is already infested with Spit16s, so the majority of the time one would probably meet a hostile Spit16, thus offsetting its advantage. But that's only because the Spit16 is popular.

 And if it needs so much work, why'd it be popular in the first place?

Offline NoBaddy

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2006, 03:44:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
How do I say this nicely....dude, Im a bomber dweeb.  I stink in fighters.  Yet that thing makes me look like el-ace-a-roonni

:p


Actually, the proper form of address for Schatzi would be "dudette". :)
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Offline Vudak

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2006, 04:15:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yoshimbo
omg all i ever see in the H2H are la7s and Spit16s, and the #@%(*^! C-Hogs won't leave my poor nikie alone:cry

is there a way to activate the whole perk thing in a H2H rooms? so sum1 can't up a perked plane till they get "x" amount of kills?

No doubt the the La7 and the Spitfire mk 16 are exceptional planes, it's that i'm just seein way too many of em, how bout sum variety?

maybe i'll just deactivate them in my rooms.

or maybe i should go to bed.
 
-.-


If you are annoyed with dealing with a combo of seven La7s and Spit16s in H2H, you're gonna HATE the MA :D
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Offline BugsBunny

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2006, 08:41:23 AM »
Well, I did not know it takes work to turn (pull the stick) or shoot guns (pull the triger).

Turning means nothing. ( Horse power however, may make a difference. )  It is all about how you fight the fight.  Its a chess game.  Just because something is fast or turns good it does not make it a good fighter.  Last I checked D9s were pretty fast but no one is crying about how good of a killer they are.

Now, if you go in there and all you do is flat turns fighting a guy that does flat turns, yes, the better turner will win.  But thats your fault, not the planes.

I just did a quick check.  Spit16 vs P40  (31 to 22) not a big difference I would say.

:D

Offline FiLtH

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2006, 09:40:13 AM »
Theres a few reasons for guys to headon.

New guy and shoots at whatever is there

Plane he is in is so fast he can never get a 6 shot becuase people turn

Plane so slow hes in he cant ever catch anything

Middle of a 3 on 1 and takes what he can get

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Offline AutoPilot

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Offline 68Hawk

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2006, 03:48:56 PM »
The Luftwaffe used HO attacks on bomber formations because they were exposed to defensive fire for shorter periods of time and because they could get a better shot on the cockpit of the bombers.  Remember that at this stage of the war the LW was concerned not only with shooting down bombers, but also with maintaining a sustainable loss rate.  We all know (or should) how suicidal it is to approach bombers from the aft quarter when a reasonable gunner is aiming back at you.

The problem of the spit16 and la7 is that they are both overbalanced for the main arena, and thus they become crutches for pilots who have a lot more to learn.  In unskilled hands they can still be shot down, but even in mediocer hands they are potent.  Both are faster than just about anything else, and both turn and climb at insane rates.  I'm not sure if this performance is historical for these models or not, but lets assume they are.

The devs put the perk system in the game to help even things out, and so more advanced aircraft could be included without having the sky full of 262s all the time.  I see no reason whatsoever why the f4u1c should be perked and not these planes.  Actually I think the spit 16 and la7 should be perked way higher than the charlie.  

In real life, war was about winning.  This is a game.  There should be balance.  The La7s and spit16s throw off any kind of balance in the game, unless we all just 'join them' as someone said.  I see this as a cop out.  Any time I participate in an attack, almost all I see upping to defend are spit16s and la7s.  

I'm not saying that they should be taken out of the game, or even heavily perked, but I think it would be beneficial to the game balance and the sense of emmersion to perk them around 20-25 points each.  

If we don't perk them, then people have no real incentive to fly anything else.  Leaving things as is allows people to mask a lack of skill by flying an (almost) absolutely superior performing aircraft.  

Perk these planes and people will be forced to learn how to fly them right, and will be forced to think twice about taking them up.  We'll also see a much greater variety of aircraft being flown in the MA.  Wouldn't we all (except the potatos who perpetually fly these types) benefit from that?
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Offline 68Hawk

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2006, 04:20:59 PM »
Spit V: 6478 produced
Spit VIII: 1652 produced
Spit IX: 7180 produced
Spit XIV: 957 produced
Spit XVI: 1054 produced
most other variants are in the hundreds
http://www.spitfiresociety.demon.co.uk/whatmark.htm

Yak1: 8721 produced
Yak7: 6399 produced
Yak9: 14579 produced (during the war)
"From mid-1944 onwards the Yak-9 was the numerically most important Soviet fighter."
Mig1 & Mig3: 3422 produced
LA7: 5753 produced
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/airforce/sov_mil.txt

These aren't 'official' sources, but they aren't too bad.

I don't see anything resembling the ratios of spits in the MA.  The LA7 comes closer, but given the expanse of the Russian front I think it's safe to say that they would not have been encountered in such dense numbers as we see them in the MA.  If anything we should be flooded with Yak9s and Spit9s.

Please perk these planes so we can still fly them and so that they won't be abused, as is currently the case.
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Offline Vudak

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2006, 04:41:02 PM »
You know, really, what's the difference if they're perked or not.  The same sort of fellow who'll happily be 4th man in when you're already outnumbered 3 v 1 will do the same thing regardless of what plane he's in.

You guys don't want to change the planes, you want to change the attitude.  Good luck with that.
Vudak
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Offline Elfie

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2006, 04:47:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
JG26 "Abbeville Kids" and their Yellow-Nosed 190's struck fear into the Allied Bombers by HO'ing them.   It was their preferred tactic, because that is one of the most vulnerable areas.


Wasnt that why the chin turret was added to the B-17?
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Offline Elfie

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2006, 04:55:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FALCONWING
i fly the la7 once in a while......

i have found that most enemy planes actually try to ho me...i have no idea why...the la7 is a better hoer than anything but a 110/il2.

when i see guys type about being ho'd by a la7 i hafta ask myself why did they not decide before less then 1k out to maneuver for anything else???
is plain goofy..then i realize that most guys who hate the la7 and whine about ho's are skilless pilots and darwin is smiling as they die...

and yes the la7 is a wonderful knife fiter...i would rather turnfite almost anything then take a chance at winning a ho.....

but i hardly ever fly one so this is just my theoretical ideas....

DARWIN - 1
WHINERS - 0


If I was gonna HO I'd take 4 Hizooka's over 3 B-20's or 2 Shvaks any day.

Sometimes you dont have the speed/energy to manuever away from the HO in time. That's happened to me before, especially when flying the Hurricane and just finishing one fight and along comes someone trying to HO heh.
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In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline NoBaddy

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2006, 05:43:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68Hawk
The Luftwaffe used HO attacks on bomber formations because they were exposed to defensive fire for shorter periods of time and because they could get a better shot on the cockpit of the bombers.  Remember that at this stage of the war the LW was concerned not only with shooting down bombers, but also with maintaining a sustainable loss rate.  We all know (or should) how suicidal it is to approach bombers from the aft quarter when a reasonable gunner is aiming back at you.

 


It was their prefered method of attack versus B-17s because of the poor forward defenses of the early B-17s. The G model added the twin .50s in the chin. If you read around a bit, you will find that the German pilots didn't want to attack from head on, it was simply the most effective way. The risk of collision was very great. Think about it, 2 planes with a closure rate of somewhere near 600 mph and it wasn't just 1 plane, the sky was full of them. Unlike us...they only had 1 life and no do-overs. :D
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Offline 68Hawk

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2006, 06:01:12 PM »
Exactly, they didn't want to attack head on, but it beat any other method of attacking massed bomber formations with single engine fighters.  It limited their exposure to defensive fire while giving them the most opportune, if short, shot at the bombers vulnerable spots.
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Offline Elfie

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La-7s and Spitfire Mk.16s
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2006, 02:19:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68Hawk
Exactly, they didn't want to attack head on, but it beat any other method of attacking massed bomber formations with single engine fighters.  It limited their exposure to defensive fire while giving them the most opportune, if short, shot at the bombers vulnerable spots.


Until the chin turret was added to the B-17, then those attacks became alot more dangerous.
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Offline 68Hawk

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« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2006, 10:39:06 PM »
Quote
Until the chin turret was added to the B-17, then those attacks became alot more dangerous.


Well of course, but a pass from the front would still leave a fighter exposed to the defensive fire for far less than an approach from the rear.  

Also, the B17G entered service in late 1943, about the time that escort fighters were becoming more and more frequent companions to the bombers.  As time went on, between the escort fighters and the bombers effects on the German production industries, the Luftwaffe became evermore incapable of effectively intercepting the large raids on their homeland.  Within 9-12 months of the B17Gs deployment, fighter opposition to the bomber fleets would have been practically reduced to a state of innefectiveness.  

Too bad for the Luftwaffe that Galland's reccomendations weren't acted upon until 1944, when it was too late to really make a difference in the stategic air war.  Good for us though!
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