Author Topic: Alternative fuel  (Read 1781 times)

Offline -tronski-

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Alternative fuel
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2006, 08:11:30 AM »
If you believe in Peak Oil, then the world wide decline in oil production has already begun and the decline could end production within 10 to 20 years - with increasing world wide demand outstripping a quickly declining oil production which would produce massive shortages to the major consumers.
If you believe the Oil companies and producers there are many many decades left which by then alternative fuel sources will reduce the eventual oil producing to end with a whimper. Fuel prices are high now and rising - not because of the reliance of the middle eastern oil production - but because all the easy cheap oil has already been produced. Exploration and production in "new" untapped oil fields is massively expensive - and will only become more expensive.

Either way alternative fuel production should have already begun - because an industry that could support the amount of consumption thats occuring now will take at least a decade to produce whats required. SASOL in South Africa converts coal to mostly diesel, but it could take at least a decade for a world wide implementation of this process - and thats not taking into account the ecological costs. Bio fuel is not an entirely realistic solution considering if you took the ENTIRE american corn and maize production last year and converted it to fuel, it would still only provide between 15-20% of your yearly needs.

The CSIRO in australia is working on a hydro-electric fuel source thats the same size as a microwave for vehicle use. The amount of money that should being spent on these types of technologies should being spent now...not in 20 years when theres a major problem.

 Tronsky
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 08:31:11 AM by -tronski- »
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Offline eagl

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Alternative fuel
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2006, 08:14:41 AM »
Alternative energy discussions usually miss the point.  They almost always focus on variations on a theme - come up with a chemical means of transporting energy from one point to another, and burning it on demand to do useful things.  That's a cycle and paradigm keeping us stuck in a rut, but it's pretty much driven by a lack of an attractive and inexpensive technological alternative.  For generating portable mechanical power, we simply have come up with NOTHING more efficient than starting and stopping a controlled and contained explosion using a mixture of petroleum fuel and the oxygen found in our atmosphere.

Considering the entire cycle, from pumping oil from the ground to burning it in your SUV or lawn mower, NOTHING we have nowadays is more efficient and useful that that, period.  And that's pretty sad.

We need a few things.

Higher conversion rate from energy to work.  (ie. less waste heat).
Higher energy storage density.  (ie. MUCH better batteries or more energetic fuels)  Or a way to avoid storage and just pull it from thin air, because hauling your fuel around is necessary but inherently wasteful.
High adoption rate (ie. attractive reasons to switch from old to new)
Less wasteful production - consumption cycle (ie. halting rate of increase of use of a non-renewable source)

All the BS about veggie oil, alcohol, and electric power run against one or more of these problems.  But if you don't solve ALL of these problems, you're just trading one crappy way of doing things for another, and the alternative is going to cost more than the way we're doing things now.

Personally, I think that the only thing that will fix our energy problems are massive improvements on conversion rate and storage density.  Efficiently using what energy you have available is always a good idea, but the efficiency increase must pay for the cost of the changeover including both pure research/development and replacing all the old crap with new crap.  And although there are gigawatts of energy just sitting around in our nuke powerplants, getting that energy to where it's actually needed is just as much a problem now as it was 200 years ago.  Yea we're using power lines and supertankers to move energy from one point to another instead of hauling wood and coal one donkey-cart at a time, but a lot of energy is still wasted getting that energy to whoever consumes it to do work.

Guess what - NONE of the current alternative fuel sources do ANYTHING about those two problems - efficient conversion to work and storage density.  If anything, they are steps backwards.  As just one simple example, I'll pick on alcohol.  First, it has terrible energy density compared to petroleum fuels.  A gallon of gas has somewhere around 25% more stored energy than a gallon of alcohol (this is why alcohol-spiked fuel lowers your gas mileage).  Second, since it burns cooler than petroleum you can't create as great of a pressure or temperature differential within a powerplant, and that means the powerplant itself is less efficient.  Maximizing a pressure or temperature differential is one of the single most important requirements when designing a powerplant that converts one kind of energy to another.  It's why hotter engines produce more power, and it's why really BIG dams make electricity more efficiently than a series of little dams.  Third, transmission of alcohol based fuels is less efficient because it mixes with water, it must be transported and stored in more expensive sealed and climate controlled containers and may even need to be processed to remove excess water before it can be used.  All of that uses even more energy spent just in the process of getting your fuel from the production source to the end user.

Electricity is even worse, but I think it will gradually get better.  Solar cells are nothing more than a battery (look it up), and the energy required to create a solar cell is more than the energy you'll ever get out of it.  The question is if the loss is worth it.  If you're in the middle of the desert (or out in space) and there are no power lines around, then yea it's worth it.  If you're in the middle of a city on a plentiful power grid and you can buy electricity and use it yourself with the same inherent transmission losses as a factory that builds solar cells, then no way in hell is it worth it.  Conventional batteries have the same problem.  When they develop a battery the weight, size, and shape of a full gas tank that equals the storage density of a tank of gas, then we'll be getting somewhere.  Until then, you're simply using the same energy in a different manner and transporting that energy is going to remain your main problem.  And electrical motors get hot just like combustion engines, meaning that they're still wasting a significant percentage of the energy as heat.
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Offline eagl

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Alternative fuel
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2006, 08:24:42 AM »
BTW, I personally think that to some extent (especially outside of inner cities) we'll go back to just burning stuff.  Compressed coal dust has a LOT of energy, can be transported and stored safely and easily, and modern furnace design can make up for a lot of the old problems that led us to switch to gas and oil furnaces a long time ago.  Coal or wood pellet furnaces are about as cheap and efficient as gas and oil furnaces nowadays, so I think we'll see people start using those more.

We're also going to see more and more efficient use of existing energy supplies.  For example, a number of major home builders are starting to switch to high efficiency inline water heaters.  While looking into designing my own home, the builder recommended using a pair of $1500 inline water heaters instead of one large and one small conventional water heater.  The estimated savings for the inline heaters resulted in them paying for themselves (by reduced energy use) in about 5 years and if properly maintained, they should last at least 10 so replacement costs won't make this another wasteful "innovation".  As more people start using these things in new construction, the price will go down even further.

So I think without a major technological breakthrough solving all of the problems I listed in the above post, we'll just end up working incremental improvements in efficiency and using modern technology to bring back a variety of existing but somewhat unpopular/undesirable energy sources.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Nashwan

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Alternative fuel
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2006, 08:27:31 AM »
Quote
Would love to see fuel prices reduced back to sane levels in the UK its about £1 a litre


The problem is, petrol is actually really cheap. Petrol in the UK costs about 35p a litre, the government takes over 60p a litre in tax.

Any fuel that comes along to replace petrol, the government are either going to tax it to the same extent, or put the taxes on something else. Either way, you have to pay the tax as well.

A litre of petrol is equal to about 8 units of electricity. Current price of a unit of electricity is about 10p. Replace petrol with electricity and it's actually far more expensive, when you add the taxes on to the cost of the electricity.

Offline aztec

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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2006, 10:15:54 AM »
See rule # 4
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 10:23:02 AM by MP5 »

Offline aztec

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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2006, 10:37:18 AM »
6- Members are asked to not act as "back seat moderators". Issues with any breach of rules should be brought to HTC's attention via email at support@hitechcreations.com.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 10:46:11 AM by MP5 »

Offline aztec

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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2006, 11:02:40 AM »
Excuse me Sir, everyone plz feel free to continue bashing Mexicans. My Bad.

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2006, 12:06:54 PM »
Its too bad we cant have more nuclear plants generating the power we need.  Clearly this would diminish the green house gases from the use of coal and fossil fuels.

But the same people that insist we reduce greenhouse gases play the NIMBY game (Not In My Back Yard).

They wont allow new nuclear plants.  And some areas wont allow windmills or some solar arrays....claiming it tarnishes the landscape.

So while there are some solutions out there, just the moment you suggest them, out comes the NIMBY card.

Its this sort of energy stalemate that frustrates me.

We can do better.   We should.

Just, dammit, let us!

Offline Nilsen

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Alternative fuel
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2006, 12:14:30 PM »
I am a treehugger and I am pro nukular plants.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2006, 12:16:33 PM »
Can anyone actually point to a method to produce a useable hydrogen fuel in which the extraction/seperation method doesnt actual require more energy than the hydrogen can deliver?  It may exist, but I haven't seen or heard of it yet.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2006, 01:37:32 PM »
Dago, it's called a ram scoop but it only works in space.


The biomass fad won't work as a fuel replacement. Yes it might reduce our petro fuel use slightly but there isn't enough arable land in the US to support the growth of enough biomass to take the place of the billions of barrels of oil we now use for fuel, both gas and diesel.

IF another solution comes into the picture it won't happen over night. First off if it does depend on a fuel source that has to be replenished you will have to build a fuel system to provide fill ups across the country. I would imagine it would start with small local use cars only then build up from there so you can go across the country and find fuel reliably. Once a network of fuel stops is built then there will be a gradual transition to the newer form of transportation as the older vehicles wear out. They are a disposable item and they do wear out. The transition for support will still maintain jobs as they are for a while as the work force retrains from petro technology to the new system. It's happened before when the horse / buggy time transitioned over to the horseless carriage era. It will do so again.

Nothing mechanical will run forever especially with the average drivers we have on the roads. There will always be the need for mechanics and garages to fix the critters.
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Offline soda72

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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2006, 02:10:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
I am a treehugger and I am pro nukular plants.


Does that make you a Liberal Conservative?

:)

Offline DieAz

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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2006, 02:14:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick

The biomass fad won't work as a fuel replacement. Yes it might reduce our petro fuel use slightly but there isn't enough arable land in the US to support the growth of enough biomass to take the place of the billions of barrels of oil we now use for fuel, both gas and diesel.



sigh, here we go again.  not going to bother saying it, just read link.

Jouney to Forever; how much land for Alternate fuels

save to favorites to
read the whole page and links when you have time. it is very interesting reading for those concerned with fuels etc.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2006, 02:25:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by soda72
Does that make you a Liberal Conservative?

:)


I suppose it does. Have never voted to the far left, but many times to the far right. Now im more between the middle and right.

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2006, 04:36:13 PM »
First ....drill everywhere, when we use all that up, burn everything, after that convert all the coal to oil. After that, look for a new energy source.