For the first time in GWB's term history...

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by slimm50
Is pulling back a panel of sheetrock and exposing all the cockroaches that are breeding/living in the wall creating more roaches? Gimme a break!

You actually believe that the U.S. has not created thousands of enemies since the invasion of Iraq that otherwise would have gone through life not lifting a finger against us?

The regular people of Iraq look at their current situation and ask themselves, am I better of now or was I better off before the western soldiers came to my country?  Invariably the answer is they are far worse off now and have much more to worry about than before the invasion.  The young men look around and grow angry and desperate and look for someone to blame.  This allows the poisonous words of the radical clerics to infect their souls and before you know it, they are ready to strap on a bomb suit and blow them selves up for the glory of Allah.

Then there are the fellow Moslems in surrounding nations that look upon the Iraq war as the west trying to take over the Middle East one country at a time and then their young men and women flock to Iraq to help defend their brothers.

Make no mistake my friend, the world is a far more dangerous place now than it was before the Iraq war.

[john9001]

Originally posted by ChickenHawk

The regular people of Iraq look at their current situation and ask themselves, am I better of now or was I better off before the western soldiers came to my country?  Invariably the answer is they are far worse off now and have much more to worry about than before the invasion.  
Make no mistake my friend, the world is a far more dangerous place now than it was before the Iraq war.

you are wrong in so many ways, i feel sorry for you.

[Shifty]

Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Make no mistake my friend, the world is a far more dangerous place now than it was before the Iraq war.

Oh you're so right. They were so loving and peaceful before mean old George invaded Iraq. I mean really , all of this is his fault.Get a grip.




 Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans before Iraq invasion



1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.
1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.
1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: *****e suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait *****e truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed.

[Edbert1]

ChickenHawk, much of that makes sense if all the violence in Iraq were directed at the coalition forces. But the fact is that the vast majority of the bombs are targetting those you refer to as their brothers. How can they be blowing each other to smithereens out of their fears of our agression.

What we are seeing is a struggle for supremacy in the region. Mostly chiite versus sunni, they are contesting with one another for control over the cash that will come from their oil.

Now I understand that for the average Iraqi, Iraq is a more dangerous place to live than it was under Sadaam, he was able to curtail most of the crime and there were no roits in the streets. More dangerous now unless of course you are one of the millions who dies in the gas attacks or torture chambers.

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by Shifty
Oh you're so right. They were so loving and peaceful before mean old George invaded Iraq. I mean really , all of this is his fault.Get a grip.

Hmmmm, I don't recall saying any of that.  I never said they were peaceful, nor did I lay all the blame at Bush's feet.  

All I said was that the ranks of those willing to do violence against western citizens has grown and continues to grow at a much faster pace since the Iraq war.  And I stand by that statement.

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by Edbert1
ChickenHawk, much of that makes sense if all the violence in Iraq were directed at the coalition forces. But the fact is that the vast majority of the bombs are targetting those you refer to as their brothers. How can they be blowing each other to smithereens out of their fears of our agression.

What we are seeing is a struggle for supremacy in the region. Mostly chiite versus sunni, they are contesting with one another for control over the cash that will come from their oil.

You are right of course.  I should not have grouped all the Moslems together.  The three main ethnic groups in Iraq hate each other and are currently in a power struggle for control of the oil and as much real estate as they can get their hands on.

Aside from that, we still are their enemy and the number of those wishing to do us harm grows by the day.  As soon as one group gets on top of the dog pile, they will come looking for us a little closer to home.

[Yeager]

Islam is at war with itself.  Lets hope it loses.  And indeed lets help Islam defeat itself.   To that extent I think the mission in Iraq might be successful yet.

Has Bush undergone a lobotomy?  the guy cant talk himself out of a paper sack lately

[Edbert1]

Originally posted by Yeager
Islam is at war with itself.  Lets hope it loses.  And indeed lets help Islam defeat itself.   To that extent I think the mission in Iraq might be successful yet.

Has Bush undergone a lobotomy?  the guy cant talk himself out of a paper sack lately

Regarding the first part of this...Iran's leadership is poised on a powder keg. Roughly 50% of their population is Chiite and or Persian, the rest is a mix of other ethnic groups among whom are Kurds and Turks (more Kurds live in Iran than Iraq). Even among the Chiite/Persian group over 50% of them are under 35 years of age, and they generally hate the Imams and Ayatollahs. What we should be doing is fostering a civil war in Iran just like they are doing in Iraq.

Regarding the latter...when was he ever able to make a coherent sentence? Even when he's reading a speech he can barely speak. The one and only time he ever did well at using his own words was on the streets of NYC after 9-11, IMO of course.

[Shifty]

Originally posted by ChickenHawk


All I said was that the ranks of those willing to do violence against western citizens has grown and continues to grow at a much faster pace since the Iraq war.  And I stand by that statement.

Where is the tool you measure this faster pace with? What are you basing it on?  The middle east has been a violent place for most of the 20th and all of the 21st century. There's never been a shortage of people willing to do violence against others anywhere on earth.

 Americans kill more Americans  then any other group.  Just look in the news paper. LA,  New York, Washington, Houston, they are all quagmires.

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by Spooky
This is why none of them was brainwashed and desperate enough to go kamikaze : they just broke windows and stole big screen tvs to enjoy the world cup matches in HD... much easier to handle, Katrina style...

And toasted marshmellows on a Peugeot.

[Flit]

Originally posted by ChickenHawk
You are right of course.  I should not have grouped all the Moslems together.  The three main ethnic groups in Iraq hate each other and are currently in a power struggle for control of the oil and as much real estate as they can get their hands on.

Aside from that, we still are their enemy and the number of those wishing to do us harm grows by the day.  As soon as one group gets on top of the dog pile, they will come looking for us a little closer to home.

  It seems the northern part of Iraq is doing pretty good.  The Kurds seem to have their stuff together.

[Spooky]

Originally posted by Shifty
Katrina style? A hurricane didn't hit France. These guys bit the hand that fed them because they felt they were not getting fed enough. Tell the family of the defensless old woman they set on fire that they just wanted to watch the world cup in HD. Your theory of giving them gifts so they'll leave you alone is a loser. FACT.

I meant LOOTING, Katrina style : big difference between looters lifting Nikes and suicide bombers blowing up a market full of innocents.

and if I have to explain , I don't mean gifts, I mean literally BUY them OFF until they are too fat to move and too greedy to want to die at 19.

buying them off is not MY theory, but it works well, that's how Saudians got lebanon to aid Hizbollah :

they promised to rebuild the country when Israel would attack , and pay off victims : interestingly enough, on the day after the ceasefire, a whole organisation was ready, with offices, computers and tons of cash and they were giving away wads of US dollars, very structured operation, obviously planned well ahead.

Result :

Saudians got their way, Israel looks bad, they advanced their agenda of Islamic conquest of the world, and it was much cheaper than waging war against Israel with troops and equipment.



forget morals and ethics (they sure do ), from a pure economical standpoint it is less expensive to buy off a whole population of uneducated, brainwashed people.

the whole purpose of Islam (apart from being a conquering religion set up on world domination like Dr Evil on 'roids) is to keep its  people in the middle ages, and poor enough :

they will be much easier to buy off when a big push against the rest of the world is needed, and desperate enough to go : if they live, they'll have a few crumbs for their family, if they die they do too, plus go to heaven and a 72 year old virgin (small print in the koran).

We have two solutions as a civilized western world : kill them -ALL- , and we'll all have innocent blood on our hands , or buy them off, turn them into greedy capitalists,with access to education :  give them internet pr0n and Jerry Springer, we'll have world peace in no time...

[Edbert1]

Spooky, if I beleived that money would disuade them I'd be for your idea. $300B can buy a lot of plasma TVs alright. But I simply think they'd take the money and still call for jihad.

I'm not talking about the guy in the street, the average Hodji here, I'm talking about the Mullahs, Imams and the Ayatollahs. The average Joe (Abu) is uneducated and completely bereft of a sense of self or individualism, why else would he blow himself up in a crowded market? If they (again, the leadership) don't incite the masses against the "great satan" of the west then they'll lose power. The folks in the street will realize they've been mislead and sold-out, then they'll want to replace their dictators. Losing power over their uneducated masses is the only thing they are afraid of. If we hand out TVs and refrigerators the leadership will say they are the one's supplying such things and still call for jihad against the west.

[Slash27]

Originally posted by Spooky

Cheaper to buy them off in the long run.

 

 Are you holding a white flag with one hand and typing with the other?

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Our military needs to get better at counter-insurgency.  

 

Its not the insurgency, its the occupation of a foriegn country that they need help with.