Remove drones from bombers

[mussie]

In a slight dive I have held a B-24 in the High 300's IIRC

[Krusty]

Mad this was co alt, and it's not the first time. This is just the perfect example of what happens 90% of the time.

[FiLtH]

Just do what I do. Ignore buffs most of the time.

  Krusty btw..you using the LAs atm?  Ive been practicing in the 202..Im 27/18 atm. In certain light conditions I feel like Im aiming blind.

[Krusty]

Neg filth I'm going to wait til the tour changes to better track kills/deaths.

C202 is a nice little bird. My only claim to fame is landing 10 kills in one (reloading once) in FT, mixing it up in furballs.

[EagleDNY]

Krusty is right that the bomber speeds are high - I believe this is because we are all running around on full mil throttle settings the entire flight instead of climbing out and throttling back to a cruise setting to save enough fuel to get home.  Realize however that the fighter jocks are doing this as well, and that their speeds to target are artificially high as well.  

Interception is just that - INTERCEPTION.  Tail chasing is the worst possible angle from which to intercept, for just the reason that Krusty outlines - a long chase to get in range, and you get a face-full of MG fire when you finally do catch up.  Frankly, if I'm intercepting a bomber raid, I'm hoping to do it from head on - if I'm lucky I get a cockpit shot on the lead bomber.

Good bomber interception takes a little planning - which is probably why there is so little of it.  Last night I busted at 3 x Ar-234s heading S towards our port at 15K about 3 sectors out.  We were co-alt (I was in a Tiffie, low fuel, but he didnt know that), so I cut West in front of him and he diverted W as well since my speed clean at WEP was close enough to get me a shot if kept on coming.  I ran him a sector west, ran out of gas and bailed - but by then I knew where he was, and where he was heading.

So I up a 262, and fly to the sector N of his target climbing up to 17K.  Sure enough, here he comes flying S towards the port...  quick dive down, 30mm across the wings, and boom - no more Ar-234s.  

Admittedly - we don't have a bevy of forward air controllers calling out bomber position, course, speed, & alt for half an hour before the interception takes place.  If we did, the battle would go a bit more realistically because you'd be sitting there above them when the bomber stream showed up.  Since we are intercepting "on the fly", maybe it's better to get in the habit of calling out the bomber info for a while before you engage to give others in your country the opportunity to get into position.  If your countrymen get into the same habit, then they give you the opportunity to get into a better position as well.

If you don't have the time because the bombers are too close to target, you just have to engage and take your chances.  A single fighter facing a load of .50 cal isn't pretty, but there it is.  There are angles that make it tough on the  bomber, so try to attack from one.  The bomber driver isn't saying to himself "oh boy, here comes another fighter for me to kill" (not unless he's certifiably insane...), even if he has his drones with him.  

The drones give him an even shot to get you, which he really doesn't have if it is just one bomber vs one fighter.  I don't think the answer is to drop drones from the buffs - buffs are easy meat without drones.  So easy, that I think we  lose the level buff drivers from the game if they can't up a formation of 3 to at least give them a chance to fight off a single fighter.  

Damn... long enough post for you?

EagleDNY
$.02  

[Mace2004]

Looking at AH's aircraft speed profiles (look on the main AH page under Game Info) max speed for a B-17G is about 300 MPH True at 30k.  Max speed at 15k is about 270; however, these are Maximum speeds achieved at "military power", not Maximum Continuous (or "cruise" speed) which would be much slower.  But here's another "however", AH fighters are not limited in the duration of their "military power" (i.e., full throttle, no WEP) times.  There should be a time/temp limitation to Mil for both fighters and bombers but we don't so I'd say it's a wash since neither bombers nor fighters are limited in using maximum power and therefore cruising at Max speed.

 EDIT: looks like Eagle and I were on the same wavelength at the same time :-)

As far as having a difficult time intercepting bombers at altitude...welcome to geometry, density altitude and RL.  An aircraft at altitude at high speed has a huge advantage over interceptors, even ones with a major speed advantage, trust me, I have some experience with this.  While there are several reasons, the biggest is geometry.  The more forward-quarter the intercept is the easier it is; however, if you're behind his wingline you are at a major disadvantage exactly as you are in RL.  If you're co-alt, dead 6 on him at 6k you're 3 miles behind him.  If you have a 100 mph advantage in speed it'll still take you at least 5 minutes to overtake him even if you can maintain the 100mph advantage the whole time.  That's a long time.  Also, most people I see think that an intercept means you point your nose at the guy (i.e., pure pursuit). Not true.  You have to take a cutoff vector and put your nose well in front of the Buff to get there in the shortest period of time otherwise you're just putting yourself in a tail chase.  You're also in thinner air which means you don't turn as well, have less power and bleed e faster all of which makes intercepts more difficult.  I also think that a lot of your observations are based on perception, not hard data.  The distance countdown is very course (i.e., goes from 6k to 5k, doesn't show 5,900; 5,800; 5,700; etc.) so it gives the impression that there is no closure, it's there, it's just small.  Closure is also much less than you EXPECT to see, hey, you're in a high-speed uber fighter and he's just a Buff, right?  Face it, if you're behind his wingline it's going to take time..lots of time, that's life and physics.

Bottom line is what we have performance wise is relatively accurate and the bomber formations are realistic.  Just as in RL, intercepting Buffs has more to do with geometry and altitude than anything else.  The key is get ahead of and above the Buff and prosecute your attack from there (diving from directly above also keeps you away from most of those nasty little .50cals).  I have 114 Buff kills this tour, only been killed by bombers 12 times and 95% of my kills are in a Hurri 2C.  Bombers don't seem too fast or powerful to me.

All that said, I'd be all for finding a way to stop Lancstukas and reimplementing the full calibration requirements including target altitude, tracking a ground tgt, etc.  It would also be nice if someone could figure out how to severely penalize those that bail immediately after their bombing run (or when they're about to get jumped).  The .50cal's don't bother me, it's the fact that these bomber bozos are so gamey.

Mace

[Krusty]

Decent sized post. You forget, however, that Bombers didn't get formations until AH2 came out. Before then they enjoyed enormous success with single-planes. Folks actually teamed up in 2-man groups and had fun.

I disagree entirely that bombers without drones are helpless. They are still more than a match for any fighter that isn't already ahead of them and higher than them -- and even a B5N attacking from there can get a kill! (*that's a joke, kid, these are the jokes!*)

[BlueJ1]

Originally posted by Krusty
Decent sized post. You forget, however, that Bombers didn't get formations until AH2 came out. Before then they enjoyed enormous success with single-planes. Folks actually teamed up in 2-man groups and had fun.

I disagree entirely that bombers without drones are helpless. They are still more than a match for any fighter that isn't already ahead of them and higher than them -- and even a B5N attacking from there can get a kill! (*that's a joke, kid, these are the jokes!*)

We had formations in AH1.

[Kermit de frog]

I remember taking formations in AH1 Krusty.

Am I getting my memories mixed up?

[BlueJ1]

Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I remember taking formations in AH1 Krusty.

Am I getting my memories mixed up?

No.

[hubsonfire]

We had pinpoint accuracy, and no formations when I played AH1. And as has been pointed out, we managed to do just fine. My squad would often up 3-6 plane strikes and coordinate drops, and we fared well enough to continue flying them. In missions on the scale that I see today, even single planes with moderately capable pilots could perform just as well.

IIRC, formations were added fairly late in the game, as we were supposed to have lessened accuracy, and formations were intended to introduce carpet bombing to replace the laser guided munitions we'd been using til then. However, once the Norden sight was killed, we were back to the same accuracy, except the 3 bombs fell in a triangle, instead of one bomb hitting dead center.

A tactic that works well with bombers is going to the auto climb mode, and setting your speed just above the max level speed. The formation will enter and maintain a shallow dive, allowing you to maintain higher speeds.

And fighters are limited, albeit slightly, in WEP duration. The cutoff is either timing or temperature, depending on the plane, IINM, whereas buffs, with the sole exception of the B26, can run WFO indefinitely.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
And fighters are limited, albeit slightly, in WEP duration. The cutoff is either timing or temperature, depending on the plane, IINM, whereas buffs, with the sole exception of the B26, can run WFO indefinitely.

WEP, Mil power and Max continuous are all different things.  Yes, any plane in AH that has WEP has a limited duration but that should also apply to Mil power which is full throttle but without WEP.  Mil is limited because at these power settings the engine will eventually overheat and wear is much higher.  Max Continuous power is that best that the engine can do without exceeding mechanical limits over extended periods of time and is usually quite a bit lower than Mil power.  The discrepancy with AH is that all aircraft can run at Mil indefinently but since all the planes can do it I don't think it really matters.

Mace

[EagleDNY]

I don't think it's the formations that are the problem, its that the bomb sights are laser accurate and there isn't any crosswind, flak bouncing, or cloud cover to inhibit dropping the bomb into the pickle barrel every time.  

From 15K (thats almost 3 MILES folks), bombs should spread out side-to-side quite a bit before impact.  Instead, we see a laser straight line of bomber destruction.  This same effect is what dooms an AH2 CV when a level bomber flies over, despite the RL experience that level bombers were lousy a hitting a moving target.  

I think cloud cover would be good improvement as well - not the hazy layer we have at 15K, but some actual broken, thick clouds at varying altitudes over the world, which actually move with the wind (wow, wind, what a concept...).  Buff drivers might even like the ability to dive into some cloud cover now and again, and you might even sneak a CV around in a weather front.

EagleDNY
$.02

[detch01]

What AkAk said. Last night I for the longest time I couldn't find a fighter v fighter fight anywhere. It was a choice of vulching or being vulched or going after bombers. I chose to go after bombers. I killed (and got killed by) B-24's, B-26's, B-17's and Lancs that ranged in altitude from on the deck to 15-18k. I never had a problem catching them low or high. Even when having to climb up 10k+ to them I had no problem catching them, it just took a little time. As for buff gun lethality and accuracy: don't present a steady target to them. Cut across his 3-9 line and vary your rate of climb &/or dive when you attack them so he has a harder time figuring out where and how much to lead his shot. The only times I get nailed hard by buff gunners is when I don't make it hard for them to hit me, which unfortunately I don't do nearly enough.
Some hints: On the B-24's aim for the wing roots. They burn easy and you can let the timer do it's work to get the kill for you once he's on fire and do the same to the drones.
 On Lancs, hit them from below and aim for the tail or where the wings meet the outside engines, they break easy.
 On B-26's and B-17's - cockpit shots are what's needed here. Head on attacks work well enough if you can shoot half decently (which I can't ), but so do slashing attacks from above.
  On all attacks on bombers keep your speed up and when you get close you can do some hard maneuvering to get some good hits in. The closer you are, the harder it is for a gunner to keep his guns on you when you're maneuvering. Just make sure you don't get slow or predictable.
  Oh and just one more thing, just because bombers are big, slow, unmaneuverable, easy to hit targets doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, so remember to keep the ON/OFF switch on your brain pan selected to "ON".




asw

[Patches1]

I have little difficulty in killing bombers in my -1, or -1D Corsair with my 50 calibers. Bombers are big fat targets! Yes! I have times when I shout...BS!....but those times are usually when I make mistakes, or when the net is a bit screwy...but mostly, it's when I make mistakes.

I love attacking bombers! The key to attacking bombers successfully is good SA. At altitude (20k'ish)....bombers are fast (when level)...250+....so you, as a fighter must anticipate their target, and speed, climb above them.

Be patient...if your SA is good...you can position yourself (even at 25K...or more) into a good killing position. I've chased many a bomber from the low six position....to the high twelve...over several sectors.

Bombers get faster up high...they burn off fuel....and if they have already dropped their ordnance....they get fast, quicker. You, as a fighter, must know how long it will take you to match a bomber's speed up high, then climb above it, and dive for the kill.

As a side note: if you kill the lead bomber first...the drones will warp...sometimes crazily...until the lead bomber dies. So...kill the right hand drone first, then the left hand drone...then the lead Bomber...and if you set a bomber on fire...let it burn...extend for speed and altitude and reset to attack the remaining bombers.

When you meet an experienced bomber pilot, no matter the altitude, you as a fighter pilot will know the difference between someone just flying bombers, and someone who pilots bombers for effect. I've flown many a mission tracking  what I suspected to be a bomber, always grabbing for altitude and anticipating a MINIMUM closure rate of 250 mph at 20K...and flying my Corsair with patience. I've been rewarded with Victory and Defeat at altitudes of 30k for Victories....and 5K for defeat. Bomber pilots have always dictated my demise...when I lost patience.